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[Use of Shonen-ai, Shojo-ai, Yaoi, Yuri]

It bothers me that shonen-ai and shojo-ai are still up there, since the Japanese don't use them,

and the definitions of yaoi and yuri are offensive

and josei's definition is unaccurate

could someone change this for me?

Jōsei (adult women's) manga, the smallest of the four great manga categories, spans the same type of material covered in adult women's fiction in America.

This is late, but...

For the Japanese use of terms related to male homosexual–centered anime and manga, see Aestheticism's glossaries. However, for the historical use in anglophone fandom of most of the terms under discussion, see this post of mine.

As for "josei", what do you, xXBunnyXx, find about the current definition to be "unaccurate"? Manga: The Complete Guide defines jōsei (on p. 171) as:

Quote:

Jōsei (adult women's) manga, the smallest of the four great manga categories, spans the same type of material covered in adult women's fiction in America.

(Dreamland Japan: Writings on Modern Manga (p. 124, but see also pp. 95, 128, 155, and 207–11) and Manga: Sixty Years of Japanese Comics (p. 116–119) use "ladies' comics"/redicomi/redikomi instead of jōsei, but in the same context.)

The problem I see with your definition is that you're conflating "boys' love" and "yaoi". Now, maybe today in US fandom the two have become synonymous, but it wasn't always that way, and in Japan it never was that way AFAIK. Our main target is a North American audience so I agree we should update the description to reflect the current usage in North America, but at the same time we shouldn't just pretend that yaoi never meant anything more than "boys' love". It used to mean "graphic male homosexual sex" and the article should definitely explain the history of the word, even if that history is offensive to you.

Also the whole part about why women enjoy BL is too speculative and one-sided to be part of the lexicon entry as it is written there. It would have to be expanded to feature more than one of the leading "why yaoi is popular" theories.

Heck, after reading the wikipedia entry I wonder why not just use that? It's as complete and accurate as anything I've ever read about yaoi.

The problem I see with your definition is that you're conflating "boys' love" and "yaoi". Now, maybe today in US fandom the two have become synonymous, but it wasn't always that way, and in Japan it never was that way AFAIK. Our main target is a North American audience so I agree we should update the description to reflect the current usage in North America, but at the same time we shouldn't just pretend that yaoi never meant anything more than "boys' love". It used to mean "graphic male homosexual sex" and the article should definitely explain the history of the word, even if that history is offensive to you.

Also the whole part about why women enjoy BL is too speculative and one-sided to be part of the lexicon entry as it is written there. It would have to be expanded to feature more than one of the leading "why yaoi is popular" theories.

Heck, after reading the wikipedia entry I wonder why not just use that? It's as complete and accurate as anything I've ever read about yaoi.

I commend you for your determination in sticking with this topic even though 3 months have passed since your originating post. But it would be helpful if you responded to my arguments rather than posting specious accusations.

Yaoi (aka Boys' Love) is a popular term for female-oriented fictional media that focus on homoerotic or homoromantic male relationships, usually created by female authors. Originally referring to a specific type of dōjinshi (self-published works) parody of mainstream anime and manga works, yaoi came to be used as a generic term for female-oriented manga, anime, dating sims, novels and dōjinshi featuring idealized homosexual male relationships. The main characters in yaoi usually conform to the formula of the seme (literally: attacker) who pursues the uke (literally: receiver).

In Japan, the term has largely been replaced by the rubric Boys' Love, which subsumes both parodies and original works, and commercial as well as dōjinshi works. Although the genre is called Boys' Love (commonly abbreviated as "BL"), the males featured are pubescent or older. Works featuring prepubescent boys are labeled shotacon, and seen as a distinct genre. Yaoi (as it continues to be known among English-speaking fans) has spread beyond Japan: both translated and original yaoi is now available in many countries and languages.

Yaoi began in the dōjinshi markets of Japan in the late 1970s/early 1980s as an outgrowth of shōnen-ai (also known as "Juné" or "tanbi"), but whereas shōnen-ai (both commercial and dōjinshi) were original works, yaoi were parodies of popular "straight" shōnen anime and manga, such as Captain Tsubasa and Saint Seiya.

BL creators and fans are careful to distinguish the genre from bara, including “gay manga”, which are created by and for gay men. However, some male manga creators have produced BL works. Yuri is a wider blanket term than yaoi, because it refers to comics with lesbian relationships, regardless of the target audience, which may be (presumptively heterosexual) men, heterosexual women, or lesbian women. Yuri for actual lesbians tends to resemble the opposite of bara, while men's yuri manga is more like yaoi manga, since both are targeted at the opposite sex and are not about reflecting gay reality.

Oh, I understand all right. I understand that people who like porn sometimes can be a little sensitive about the subject and would prefer if other people didn't refer to their hobby with a crass word like "porn". But regardless of your feelings, by any objective standard stuff like this is without a doubt homosexual porn. I'm not sure how anyone could call it otherwise.

*sigh*
I think I want to skip all this trouble and copy all lexicon entries directly from wikipedia. How does this sound for yaoi?

wikipedia wrote:

Yaoi (aka Boys' Love) is a popular term for female-oriented fictional media that focus on homoerotic or homoromantic male relationships, usually created by female authors. Originally referring to a specific type of dōjinshi (self-published works) parody of mainstream anime and manga works, yaoi came to be used as a generic term for female-oriented manga, anime, dating sims, novels and dōjinshi featuring idealized homosexual male relationships. The main characters in yaoi usually conform to the formula of the seme (literally: attacker) who pursues the uke (literally: receiver). In Japan, the term has largely been replaced by the rubric Boys' Love, which subsumes both parodies and original works, and commercial as well as dōjinshi works. Although the genre is called Boys' Love (commonly abbreviated as "BL"), the males featured are pubescent or older. Works featuring prepubescent boys are labeled shotacon, and seen as a distinct genre. Yaoi (as it continues to be known among English-speaking fans) has spread beyond Japan: both translated and original yaoi is now available in many countries and languages. Yaoi began in the dōjinshi markets of Japan in the late 1970s/early 1980s as an outgrowth of shōnen-ai (also known as "Juné" or "tanbi"), but whereas shōnen-ai (both commercial and dōjinshi) were original works, yaoi were parodies of popular "straight" shōnen anime and manga, such as Captain Tsubasa and Saint Seiya. BL creators and fans are careful to distinguish the genre from bara, including “gay manga”, which are created by and for gay men. However, some male manga creators have produced BL works. Yuri is a wider blanket term than yaoi, because it refers to comics with lesbian relationships, regardless of the target audience, which may be (presumptively heterosexual) men, heterosexual women, or lesbian women. Yuri for actual lesbians tends to resemble the opposite of bara, while men's yuri manga is more like yaoi manga, since both are targeted at the opposite sex and are not about reflecting gay reality.