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What makes anime really different from western animation?


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FloruOtaku



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
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Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Even though I'm a fan of all entertainment mediums, I would still like to hear some opinions from the community on just what separates anime from what companies here in the west do to cartoons. Personally, I think part of it just has to do with how anime producers take more advantage on just how broad animation can be, but I'm open to any viewpoints.
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:58 pm Reply with quote
If you have not, you should read the "Pile of Shame" column on Genesis Survivor Gaiarth, which has some observations about the differences in cinematic technique that distinguish anime.

The key paragraph is the following:

Justin Sevakis wrote:
The answer in both cases is one of timing. A large part of what made Community so great before was a sort of restraint: a knowledge that silence and patience was as important to both comedy and emotional breadth as the punchlines. (The new episodes breathlessly try to push out as many jokes and as much dialogue as fast as possible, and fails to engage.) And so it is with anime: even the lamest dude-falls-on-boob gags are delivered with awkward silence, a pregnant pause, and THEN a sight gag. At the other end of the spectrum, quiet moments of pathos are given space: they're unlikely to be filled with obviously emotional music queues or operatic gestures. A sad character in anime is more likely to just sit there silently in the rain for a few beats. Those quiet moments are essential to anime. They are truthful, and they connect us emotionally to content that might otherwise be just as lame as its most dire Western counterparts. I suspect that part of anime's youth appeal in the West comes from younger audiences' heightened sensitivity to these subtle emotional pokes.


I think that this points to a conspicuous and defining difference. From how it was discussed on the latest ANNCast, I think that this partly owes to the influence of [live-action] director Yasujirō Ozu.

I think that there are several dimensions to this question. It's a matter of why the animation market has emerged as it has, how the stylistic tropes differ and how the storytelling differs. I've often wondered why anime, or rather anime that embraces genre other than comedy, merged in Japan but has scarce analog in the west. A guess is that the Comics Code Authority stifled the American comic book market, for which some original dramatic animation is produced, and thus leading to the concomitant stifling of that branch of the culture. This might not have been a suboptimal outcome. I think that there's ultimately a very constricted market for this kind of content, not enough to support a very large industry, so it would probably never have been economical for anything like it to emerge in America after it had emerged in Japan.


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DomonX2



Joined: 14 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:02 pm Reply with quote
Worse animation, better detail. Watch JoesphShow's videos for more. I personally think the aspects that seperates the two types of animation is just that. Animation. Although Gundam W Endless Waltz may put Gundam 0083 to the test in terms of animation detail, its animation is really no better. Hell, I'd say it's WORSE. While Spongebob may have odd art, the fact of the matter is that it moves more fluidly than both combined, which is sad, because Spongebob is low budget. Though DuckTales has both animation fluidity AND detail down. Ghibli may have good animation, but it can't compare to Toy Story 1's animation, which is not a good thing.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:51 pm Reply with quote
This is such a multi-layed question you have to narrow it down: are you speaking production-wise, market-wise, content-wise? You can write a these paper on each of those subjects.

Surrender Artist wrote:
I think that there are several dimensions to this question. It's a matter of why the animation market has emerged as it has, how the stylistic tropes differ and how the storytelling differs. I've often wondered why anime, or rather anime that embraces genre other than comedy, merged in Japan but has scarce analog in the west. A guess is that the Comics Code Authority stifled the American comic book market, for which some original dramatic animation is produced, and thus leading to the concomitant stifling of that branch of the culture. This might not have been a suboptimal outcome. I think that there's ultimately a very constricted market for this kind of content, not enough to support a very large industry, so it would probably never have been economical for anything like it to emerge in America after it had emerged in Japan.


One key different I think people overlook is animation in America is pretty much a monopoly between only a handful of studios and networks, most of which aim exclusively at children like Nickelodeon, Disney, and Cartoon Network and segregated away from the general audience as much as possible.

Conversely, you can look over at TV Tokyo which airs shows like Naruto, Pocket Monsters, Fairy Tail, Gintama, Last Exile, Prince of Tennis, Baka to Test, Yu-Gi-Oh!: a wide variety of anime aimed at various audiences. However they also air news programs, dramas, documentaries, economical programs, and other general TV shows beyond animation sprinkled throughout the day. It's more of a general channel than a kids one or an animation one. The closest American example I can think of is Fox, back when Saturday morning cartoons were relevant and existent. Animation is a lot more segregated from other television in America. So if it's seen as a more general thing, then there's no real reason why they can't have animation of various types aired during the day.

And this says nothing about late-night otaku anime which is a whole other topic and thesis in itself.
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notrogersmith



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 202
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:36 pm Reply with quote
I'd say that there are a couple contributing factors to the differences between anime and Western animation:

  • In the West, animation is used almost exclusively for children's shows or comedies, while the Japanese use animation as a medium for a broader range of stories.

  • The Japanese standards for what is acceptable for children are often less restrictive than Western standards, so some anime that are technically aimed at Japanese children are seen in the west as more suitable for older audiences. Remember that both Fullmetal Alchemist animes, for example, are based off of shonen manga (which, BTW, doesn't make them any less awesome). The anime Claymore is also based off of a shonen manga, but is rated TV-MA in the States.
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:49 pm Reply with quote
Well, I'm just going with a content comparison. The first thing I noticed was that generally the stories tend to "hook" me more than domestic animation does, and make me want to watch more. There are a multitude of reasons that this could be the case, like writing, more attention spent on characters, the inclusion of a wider variety of shows for adult demographics, or just more linear storylines that keep you on the edge of your seat. There are also a lot more science fiction shows in anime and that is my favorite genre.
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Galap
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:28 pm Reply with quote
DomonX2 wrote:
Worse animation, better detail. Watch JoesphShow's videos for more. I personally think the aspects that seperates the two types of animation is just that. Animation. Although Gundam W Endless Waltz may put Gundam 0083 to the test in terms of animation detail, its animation is really no better. Hell, I'd say it's WORSE. While Spongebob may have odd art, the fact of the matter is that it moves more fluidly than both combined, which is sad, because Spongebob is low budget. Though DuckTales has both animation fluidity AND detail down. Ghibli may have good animation, but it can't compare to Toy Story 1's animation, which is not a good thing.


Anime has better animation. Almost everything western is Flat Like Kansas, and as someone who has some experience with animating, let me say this to dispel all those people who go on and on about 'budget' and 'time saving': nothing saves you more time than making everything Flat Like Kansas. I could draw like 5 flat frames in the time it would take me to draw one frame in a sequence that utilized the third dimension. Also, Toy Story is 3DCG, which is a completely different medium than drawing animation, so comparing them is meaningless.

Also, anime animation tends to pay more attention to mass, momentum, force, and gravity than western stuff, in addition to the aforementioned attention to perspective and parallax. Western stuff may tend to have a higher framerate, but anime can do much more with the frames it has. Higher framerate doesn't necessarily mean better animation. To me, good animation is accuracy or style of the motion being depicted, and higher framerate usually helps, but isn't always a good thing, and isn't a deciding factor.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:39 pm Reply with quote
For the most part, anime is seen as a lot more serious a medium than western stuff. A lot of western cartoons are either kids shows or crass comedies. Anime allows itself to have more legitimate narratives.

That's another key factor: american cartoons are designed with the intent of running forever, so you won't see much character development or plot progression. That's why a show like Avatar made such an impression: from the beginning it had a set number of episodes with which to tell its story. That's more the norm with Anime, usually getting 13 or 26 episode runs. This model also allows a lot more anime to be aired throughout the year, so there's more to choose from.
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yoshiyukiblade



Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Posts: 305
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:08 am Reply with quote
Galap wrote:
Anime has better animation. Almost everything western is Flat Like Kansas, and as someone who has some experience with animating, let me say this to dispel all those people who go on and on about 'budget' and 'time saving': nothing saves you more time than making everything Flat Like Kansas. I could draw like 5 flat frames in the time it would take me to draw one frame in a sequence that utilized the third dimension. Also, Toy Story is 3DCG, which is a completely different medium than drawing animation, so comparing them is meaningless.

I think by animation, he meant the actual temporal movement of objects in a scene, which is generally smoother in high budget western animation. Sure everything looks flat, but some of the "temporal" detail is really nice. You might get a nice episode premiere of an anime with the similar temporal detail, but it usually drops off after that. IIRC, anime isn't generally done at a full 24 fps unless it's something that can be done in post (like screen pans, zooming, etc.) while western animation seems to utilize each frame for animation. Of course, that's comparing the best of the west versus something run-of-the-mill in Japan.

I realized, as I got older, how awful the animations AND details were in western animated TV shows like Batman, Spiderman and X-men too. So I think there are different areas we can compare/contrast between the two major styles.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:42 am Reply with quote
One other major difference is that comics in the West tend to target kids and young adults, while everyone in Japan reads manga. The closest Western equivalent, the "visual novel," is a small niche interest. (Europe, particularly France, may be different from the US here. I can't say.) So Japanese anime studios have a substantial amount of original material available to animate, and much of that material already has a substantial readership. Anime cannot be pulled out of the larger cultural context of which it is a part and compared to American cartoons. There is no equivalent context for them because visual presentations of serious material for older readers is not a part of our culture.
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Kruszer



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:05 pm Reply with quote
The main thing that I don't like about most domestic animation is that there is too much comedy injected into them to lighten the material and not enough sophisticated works for adults. For once I want to see something heavy, serious, or philosophically or morally challenging. I watched this movie called Waltz with Bashir, which I think was Israeli, and it was fantastic and I thought "Why can't the US make animated movies like this one?" If anyone's curious it's available on Netflix. They answer that came to me was that we have Hollywood, and instead of animation most of the talent flows into live action works instead. It's kind of a shame.
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yuna49



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:45 pm Reply with quote
I suspect one reason why we don't see animated features for adults from Hollywood is that special effects enable them to make "cartoons" that use live actors. With budgets in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to spend on special effects, the economic incentives for animation are diminished.
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EricJ



Joined: 03 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:47 pm Reply with quote
DomonX2 wrote:
While Spongebob may have odd art, the fact of the matter is that it moves more fluidly than both combined, which is sad, because Spongebob is low budget.


Although Spongebob raises an interesting point--
For the last generation or two since John Kricfalusi, we've gotten the CN/Nickelodeon "freak show" of x-treme cartoons made by a college-stoner crowd for their own, without even factoring their kids' demographic into the equation--Most trying to conjure up the "retro-kitsch" style of what we mythologize Hanna-Barbera Saturday-morning cartoons looked like in the late 60's, with more sneering than nostalgia, assuming they even know the difference anymore. New animators spend their formative years worshipping Ren & Stimpy and Spongebob, think it's "what you're supposed to do", and now seek to push new grounds in How To Annoy and Shock Your Audience, and Proudly Raise Your Tasteless-Immaturity Flag High, forgetting which crowd they're even playing to anymore.
(Oh, US kids will watch Spongebob, Powerpuffs and Adventure Time, but they'll watch them because they're ON--What else can they watch? When I was growing up, sonny, we had local stations forced to show Tom & Jerry and Mighty Mouse, and we actually sat and watched them, because turning on the TV after school was Happy Hour. It wasn't like we had any critical opinion of them one way or the other, you just got attached to needing them at four o'clock to keep your sanity. At least until the one station with the old Bugs Bunny toons or Flintstones came on.)

Anime has a different evolution, and didn't grow up with that faulty gene in their system.
Japanese baby-boomers grew up with Kimba, Astro Boy, Doraemon, Lum, Leiji Matsumoto, and various and sundry assorted cheery wand-waving magical tots assaulting their living rooms every day after cram school; if we ever get hip condescensions of a TV-raised childhood, I can think of worse shows to parody. Even their "worst" still...grew up pretty good.
And while their Boomers aren't free from condescension (we've gotten a lot of running jokes about the embarrassment of anime characters having a favorite cutesy-Doraemon childhood series, as on Love Hina and Nodame Cantabile), while I can't say there's "affection" for their roots, there's at least a lot less misdirected contempt. Just imagine, a country where they DON'T backhandedly loathe the cartoons they grew up with. Smile
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Knoepfchen



Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:05 pm Reply with quote
That's exactly what I asked myself coming out of the theater after watching my first anime (not counting early childhood programs), Spirited Away. There was the brave heroine being transported into a fairytale world, spoiler[having to face evil witches and all kings of monsters in order to save her parents.] Could have been a Disney movie. But it wasn't. spoiler[And the witch wasn't evil, despite being ugly and frightening. And the monsters weren't evil by definition either.] In fact, everyone had multiple layers and well drafted, interesting personalities that could not be described within 3 words. In a story about a girl encountering monsters in a fairytale. I was instantly in love.

I grew up on Disney movies and still love them, out of nostalgia, mostly. As an adult, however, I am not satisfied by watching a movie that I know the end of within 30 seconds. While one can and should not compare things like Madoka or Evangelion to Disney, I think the comparison of Disney/Ghibli could be more or less legit. The definition of good/evil and the amount of screen time dedicated to make sure viewers get this definition, however, is very different.

One thing I love about anime is not feeling patronized by the creators of a film or a show. I get to form my own opinion a lot of the time. The lack of this chance made me loose a lot of my general (and formerly rather big) interest in Hollywood movies as well. Not possible to generalize like this, of course, but still. While I am not saying Hollywood movies or western animation in general is less intelligent as anime (that would be a rather ridiculous claim to make), I do feel like the creators are less confident in their viewer's intelligence or rather ability to form their own conclusions. There are tons of exceptions, of course (on both sides), but in general I like how I feel that more credit is placed in my capabilities as a viewer. Heroes are flawed. Villains have likable characteristics. Moral is more of a lighter/darker grey than a black/white scale. Not all the questions get answered by the creators, some need to be answered by me. Heroes can die. They still do come back all too often, but some really do stay dead.

Pixar movies are a different story for me, as I love them deeply for the melancholy they make me feel.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Knoepfchen wrote:
Heroes are flawed. Villains have likable characteristics. Moral is more of a lighter/darker grey than a black/white scale. Not all the questions get answered by the creators, some need to be answered by me. Heroes can die. They still do come back all too often, but some really do stay dead.


A bit off topic example since they're not animated, but I find them to be a good example because they're two sides of the same coin: this is what I love about Super Sentai that Power Rangers has always flubbed on. Just compare Shinkenger to Power Ranger Samurai's leaders and you'll see a huge day and night difference between them. It makes me wonder how they would have handled Gokaiger who's rangers are space pirates who were originally perfectly fine with letting an innocent woman get tortured and killed in front of her own children by the villains because 'it wasn't their problem'. Or how Luka asked a man to pay her money before she would save him while she just stood there laughing at him trying not to get killed by a monster and only helped once he offered her 1,000,000 Yen. It made them interesting and complex characters, but I imagine that kind of stuff doesn't fly much in the west because it sets a bad role model for kids. Especially in a "superhero" show.
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