Forum - View topicThoughts on Evangelion Main Premise IMHO
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=Ivan=
 Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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I have recently had the opportunity to watch the whole series in two days together with End of Evangelion.
Before that I was only able to see two episodes due to the limited availability of the series in my country. So I was wondering about what other people that have seen this series thought of the main premise and subject matter? By this I mean the premise being the symbiosis of all humans into one being? Further more do you consider the "reasons" for the "Second impact" worthy of such effort as to make this leap into the unknown ? The reasons being individual psychological pain and inherent inability for true and sincere communication between humans today. It is my opinion that these communication issues are the root of almost all problems we have in our emotionall, sociologicall even politicall and economicall aspect of life. So I wonder what others think about this? |
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DrizzlingEnthalpy
 Posts: 255 |
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For the Second Impact, if you have to destroy half of the world to save the other half, I say do it. It's the lesser of two evils.
*I* would not like there to be a real version of the Human Instrumentality Project, as I would prefer to live in a frustrating real world than an ideal world created entirely by the mind. |
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NyuuChan
 Posts: 575 |
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i would want a HIP, because it would make a more peaceful world (i think) than we have right now. And good job on second impact thing, I'd have to say do it too. whats worse? blowing off half the world, or the whole thing? |
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major_pain
 Posts: 46 Location: Down the six thousand steps~ |
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I always think peope read too damn much into Evangelion, and its damn easy to do because of all the unanswered questions and things that never ever get resolved. I tried to find some 'deeper meaning' behind it all, and my brain almost exploded. Since then I've tried not to think about Eva in any way.
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camelot187757
 Posts: 426 Location: The Nacirema Dream (17 and counting Asuka) |
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If anyone deserves a vocab HP thingy its this guy because that was mind blowing right there (had to reread it like four times) but anyways... Symbioses of human beings into one as a sociological sense: I would agree(?) because in the real world isn't it the norm for a human being or a worker in this case to just want to conjoin with the rest of his workers or society in order to not be singled out and possibly outcast. What I mean is you go to a typical (if not clichéd) office building and you see all the men with a suit and matching tie drinking the same coffee pretty much doin the same thing. Shoot if I were put in that same situation I'd kill myself before I came to work with a bright green hat on and headphones blaring. Its a human need (or instinct) to conform as one. Being that I'm still in High school I can still see it when there are groups and "clicks"(god I hate that word) and possés and whatever synonyms there are where people simply need to be a part or in sync with something else. Perhaps EVA is about the further conjunction(Cam's...never mind) of all these groups into one. There are no jocks, no goths, no nerds, and no subordinate, insubordinate, boss and worker, high class low class, middle class, ghetto, Hamptons, slums, rich-b*tch-countys but instead a uniform person I guess. However, taking it as far as a supreme unification is probably taking the topic into post-cult-religion-type stuff and I don't even want to go there. Remeber Fight Club and how duke was tired of the same old thing and then he wanted to be noticed so he went to all those disease places and such. EVA could just as well be about that aspect or human life as well: need to be noticed for fear of a "psychological pain" as you put it. The exact opposite of the previous. Shinji was sad because he hurt Asuka blah blah blah so he into emo mode. Way I see it in the movie and in society, thats a common thing if you want attention because "bad press is good press I guess". In life if you can't get anyone to notice you for who you are(ehh...that was all Disney channel) then more than likely you're going to either lash out and do what you can or fall into a dpressed mode and mope and mope and then cut a demo album. But the meat of your post was human communication correct? Just for discussion sake, how many of the people would you guess that come onto this forum probably don't have any social skills and this is their getaway if you will. Some or alot none at all? My vote would go for none at all. But go deeper and guess how many of those people come on to this forum to talk about anime because they can't talk about anime to any of their friends and/or daily associates and I would bet SuperBowl money that the numbers would grow. Human communication can only go as far as it being either benifiecary or at least comfortable for both parties. Imagine if you couldn't tell a soul what you were feeling or what was going through yor mind. You'd snap, which is basically what Shinji did. He couldn't really vent out what he felt when he was came to the conclusion that piloting the Eva did nothing but kill people so his mind caved. Human communication is proabably the most fundamental thing that we as a society have going for us but its a shame we can never truly express what is going through our heads whenever we want to. |
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NeonGEvangelion
 Posts: 141 Location: El Paso TX |
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Evangelion is a powerful series. Its characters, each troubled mentally and socially. Evangelion is based on human interactions. It's full of emotions, at time happy at times depressing. The characters display a variety of mood disorders and problems with emotional health. Social problems are blatently obvious in the series. As humans are, we all can't communicate perfectly.
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=Ivan=
Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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Hmm ... I am not sure that the new entity in which humans have transformed is necesarely non-material. I thought that the transformation was into a soul like pressence that is firstly etheral but can interact with earth surounding at will. Which is a great way to exist IMHO.
I guess we all agree with this. Lesser of two evils works better.
Major_Pain it is my opinion that all great art works are "unfinished" and therefore left to individual interpretation. Good art is the one that gives you rich and inteligent starting material and subject matter from which depending on your understanding you can develop your own opinions and conclusions. I think Evangelion does that sucesfully. It is the kind of series you can aways go back to at different stages in life and realise new things and understand it differently each time you see it. |
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=Ivan=
Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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What is a hp vocab thingy? 
I don't think that humans lost all their individuality after the transformation. I think Sinji , Asuka, Rei and all people and their conciousness were intact only that acording to the new nature of their existence they lost the need to mouth out their thoughts. One of the things I thought happpened is that the individual thought could be transfered directly from one consciousness to another avoiding the possibility of lies and misconceptions. This is a solution that is a progression of the curent state where we are limited to falible oral communication. I say falible beacuse the very concept of words and meaning is still pretty much individual. Off course we all undestand more or less the same when we talk about simple words like House, tree or car. But still even here there a diferences. If I lived on the north pole in an ice block Iglo house and came to meet a person who lives say In Europe, our concepts of "house" will be pretty much different. This gap in understanding widens as we go to more complex words and terms. Inaccurate understanding and missconception of what others really think is inevitable, even thou they try their best. So we can never trully understand eachother and never realise other people's feelings. The Transformation of Humans in Evangelion would be a potentialy good way to solve this. |
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Greennunu
Posts: 145 |
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I think the world is fine as it is, certainly those communication problems is a root of some of those problems, but being true and sincre all the time and without a choice of wether you can or not can cause alot of problems too. without problems human progression would surely slow down as well, as there are not many things you can challenge yourself too(mentally mostly). Second Impact is agreed on, destroy half or the whole world, I'll go with half. |
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Hey, what do you know? It's an Eva thread and look who appears to discuss it!
To answer rather generally, it's no secret that we as humans are unable to communicate completely freely with each other. Neither can we fully know someone, nor do we often fully know and/or understand ourselves. Part of the problem is that we tend to put on different 'masks' or 'faces' depending on who we are interacting with. Thus, on these forums you guys see the side of me that enjoys anime. To an average person who reads through my posts (non-anime fan) it's quite possible I would like an obsessed lunatic, as this person would not have a similar 'mask' or perhaps in this case 'filter' to properly view this side of me. Likewise, you guys don't see the side of me that gets up and goes to the office everyday, nor the side of me that interacts with his family. If I was to suddenly mix up which side of my personality each of the 3 groups saw, it's quite possible you would each have a very different opinion of me. Similarily, I don't understand a great deal about myself. For instance, I distaste cooked carrots, but I cannot remember ever tasting them when I was little, hence I don't particularily understand why I do not like them, I just know that I do. Or, I know that I like my.. I'm not sure we've achieved BF/GF status yet, but for this example I will assume so.. GF very much, but I cannot really pinpoint the reasons. She is very much the opposite of me in many ways, yet we get along together quite well. Why? I haven't the faintest clue. Long story short.. How can we expect to understand others, when we cannot even understand ourselves?
Well, as the series explains it, humans lose all individuality and amass into one collective consciousness, so it would end up being something like the Borg, if you've seen Star Trek. The being Shinji, Asuka, Rei, etc., would exist, but they would be a part of everyone, and everyone would be a part of them. When there are no mental boundaries it is difficult to explain what would occur, but essentially Asuka, for instance, would no longer exist, but what comprises Asuka does. Or more appropriately, it would be like being everybody and yet nobody at once.[/quote] As to the final form of the entity created by Third Impact, the souls of the human race all return to the Egg of Lillith, the place where human souls are kept before they are born, and as such, the source of all human life. What I didn't get around to explaining in the other Eva thread, is that there are two scenarios for Third Impact, SEELE's and NERV's. The just of it is that, just like Second Impact, Third Impact is going to occur. There is nothing that can be done to stop it. Much like with Second Impact, it's a choice of cutting our loses. Both versions result in mankind returning to the Egg of Lillith, but one results in mankind staying in the unified consciouness state, essentially becoming a god-like creature. The other results in the temporary safe-haven for mankind in the Egg, to escape the destruction of Third Impact. Afterwards, man is 'reborn' from the Egg, essentially free of 'sin,' to start the world anew. This is, of course, just my informed opinion. You may disagree with it or not as you so choose. If I was to even attempt to explain all of the sources I have used over the years to come to my current conclusion, 1. I would not be able to do so and 2. It would probably take several pages. Needless to say, I have come across this opinion after much research. But, to be fair, I learn something new buried within Eva everyday, so my opinion is sort of fluid. |
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=Ivan=
Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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Very interesting opinion kazuki-San. I am also interested how do you explain Shinji's Visions at the end of the series and End of Evangelion?
What are those vision actually? Because if everybody is "one with everybody else" then how come there is is still so much confusion in Shinji's Mind? Shouldn't he finally be able to "be one" with all that is Asuka, or Rei and hence understand perfectly everything about them? |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Shinji was inside unit 1 when it reproduced the Tree of Life. Although his mother is the 'soul' of unit 1, Shinji is.. I guess the best description would be the brain.. of it. Once the Tree of Life was brought forth, Shinji essentially became g(G)od. He was given the power to make the choice. The choice for the future of mankind. What is interesting is that there are essentially 2 Liiliths at that point. Unit 1, a clone of Lillith, and (giant) Rei.. the 'real' Lillith. Rei essentially becomes Shinji's 'guide' or 'helper' for his decision. She also exhibits some of the characterstics that is often associated with the Angel of Death. The Angel of Death is often portrayed not as some type of evil or angry being, but rather one whose role it is to make those who are facing their death as comfortable as possible. This ties in with how when everyone is being liquified, they see images that are comforting to them, save for 2 exceptions (1 being Gendo). In any case, as Shinji is inside the Eva, I would argue that he, in fact, never leaves it. Everything he sees is merely his mind trying to comprehend his decision, Rei trying to show him the consequences, and the like. I would say Shinji never actually undergoes the process, but Rei basically gives him the visions (for instance the sea of LCL) to show him how things will be, and to guide him towards the right path. Again, that's just how I see it. |
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=Ivan=
Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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Hmm... again a lot of good ideas. But I have another question:
If Shinji doesn't undergo the process , how come he is with Asuka at the end (the poster cover scene )? Another illusion ? Or is it that he eventually gets where Asuka is? Hence In the collective. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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No, that is certainly real. In the end, Shinji rejects Instrumentality, and instead chooses to return to a world where the AT Field separates everyone's consciouness again. In other words, he chooses to return to the existence that he had just destroyed. Eva Unit 1 breaks free from Lillith-Rei (which sort of falls apart), and the souls of humanity are released from the Egg of Lillith. Again, it's not an easy question to answer since it's never shown how exactly he reaches earth again, but I would once again suggest that Rei brought him there. I doubt it would be a trivial task for the mother of humanity to accomplish. During the time the souls are being released, Yui tells us that all humans who find themselves and have the will to do so, may once again return to earth. The question that always nagged me was, Why is Asuka there? It wasn't until the other day that I figured it out. The key is Yui's line. As I said above, something to the effect of "Those who find themselves and have the will to do so, may once again return to earth." Shinji had found himself as a result of the visions he had during Third Impact. He is finally at peace with who he is. Asuka had undergone a similar process when she realized that her mother was the soul of Unit 2. She was able to get past the trauma her mother's suicide had caused her, and able to make peace with herself. That is why she is there. |
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=Ivan=
Posts: 17 Location: Europe - Balkans |
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Yeah this sort of goes with the idea I mentioned before that the collective is not really entierly spiritual and etheral but it can be left by individual soul to react and interact with Material surounding on Earth.
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