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Hey, Answerman! - Standards and Practicing


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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:58 pm Reply with quote
On the first question answered, I also watch anime mostly for the story and characters. I like watching great looking animation, but it is not everything to me. I also agree with the Answerman in that anime with low budget does not have to look cheap/ugly. I have heard that SHAFT animated the ef series on a low budget, but those animes look good.
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EireformContinent



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote
In spite of many lessons ragerding graphic and animation I was given I usually divide it into Holy Trinity of whoa/meh/yunk! 99% goes into the middle category. The last one is usually a side effect of the other cons that make me to nitpick.

Maybe because when I was a kid I was exposed to different styles of animation- everyday cartoon hour at 7pm aired 90s Disney shows alongside with Moomins, 40s Hanna Barbera shorts, Spanish and French cartoons, early Scooby Doo and former Soviet block animations. Such an exposition make me nearly completely immune to flaws of animation.
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configspace



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:37 pm Reply with quote
About animation, at such things like:
Quote:
if they forgot to add a wristwatch on a character in one scene but added on in the next scene,

I notice flaws have various annoyances with some animation, but I'm still very forgiving enough to watch and enjoy them. But even if they might not be critical, it's still a legitimate criticism. The studios realize this too, that's why almost all of them revises the animation for home video.

Quote:
A lot of people hated Redline because they thought the "story" was an exaggerated, meandering box of nothing. And I can't exactly say that they're wrong. Even though I loved the movie.

Redline's animation was freaaaking amaazzing. Like Godly.

angelmcazares wrote:
I also agree with the Answerman in that anime with low budget does not have to look cheap/ugly. I have heard that SHAFT animated the ef series on a low budget, but those animes look good.

I think ef is sort of like the bishoujo version of K. Nice designs, very colorful, gradients, etc, albeit with less actual movement. Did they if they actually have a "low" budget though? I don't really associate SHAFT with having constant low budget overall, just time pressure, especially when for each show, they comb over every frame and redo the animation for home video. That can't be cheap.


Quote:
I know other people might have more time to spend watching EVERYTHING, but that's not always the best way. A lot of the time, when I see people who watch EVERYTHING, I get the sense that they're not actually digesting what they're watching or reading. They're just ticking a box off of a list, updating their Tumblr or Facebook profile to let people know that they consumed something. But they didn't digest it. There's nothing else going on with it; it existed, they saw it, and what's done is done.

I watch most everything.. eventually, usually marathoning them, and I am certainly not like that. Although I do keep track. Maybe some people who are very selective can't understand those with broader tastes? In fact, it's because I digest everything that I feel curious enough to continue on with a show I am annoyed with because I simply want to know what happens next. There are very very few I've dropped (Vampire Pricess Miyu TV is one)

I don't see anime watching as a time waster or a "distraction" as quoted. If it's something of value, then you make time for it. I've stopped all regular TV, so I still have plenty of time for anime, among other interests.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:48 pm Reply with quote
Jeez Brian, overuse of italics much?

----------

I definitely and strongly disagree with you that story and characters are equal to animation quality and sound quality. As long as the story and characters are good, and the direction is sufficient, then who really cares if it doesn't look nice? Emotionally moving series like Usagi Drop and Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 will always be superior to beautiful trash like BLOOD-C and Guilty Crown. Anyone who says differently is vapid.

Brian wrote:
Trust me, if there was one thing that could tank the "anime industry" any more than declining viewership already has, it would be something like petty in-fighting.


The Anime industry is very profitable right now, with lots of shows being made and impressive sales stats. I don't know about viewership of the initial broadcasts - that may indeed be an area of decline - but sales are what's important for late-night Anime, not viewership.
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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:15 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Brian wrote:
Trust me, if there was one thing that could tank the "anime industry" any more than declining viewership already has, it would be something like petty in-fighting.


The Anime industry is very profitable right now, with lots of shows being made and impressive sales stats. I don't know about viewership of the initial broadcasts - that may indeed be an area of decline - but sales are what's important for late-night Anime, not viewership.


I wonder if when Brian talks about the tanking of the anime industry he is actually referring to the R1 anime business.

When I see the phrase "anime industry" I assume it is the Japanese anime industry. Like dtm42 points out, sales numbers (in Japan) are impressive. The Japanese anime industry seems very healthy to me at the moment.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:22 pm Reply with quote
It would make utterly no sense for Brian to refer to the R1 side of things in terms of in-fighting when at the time he was actually talking about the Japanese animation studios in-fighting (which was what the question was about; Japanese companies feuding).
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:25 pm Reply with quote
@Brian;
You make it sound like it's nothing, but freelancers in the anime media business. Like no studio has any permanent staff of talented artists and technicians who do their best to make a studio a place where producers want their ideas to come to life. When I see NHK's Imagine-Nation do interviews at various studios, their spokespersons usually praise their staff for the work they do and the awards they get. But they're all freelancers, according to you? The BBC did that and now they aren't half of what they were and still in decline. Rolling Eyes
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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:54 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
It would make utterly no sense for Brian to refer to the R1 side of things in terms of in-fighting when at the time he was actually talking about the Japanese animation studios in-fighting (which was what the question was about; Japanese companies feuding).


I see. Brian was talking about the Japanese anime industry. I got confused because I was baffled by the notion of the Japanese anime industry tanking. I could see the R1 side of things as tanking, but not the Japanese side.
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Aizen-chan



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:19 pm Reply with quote
EireformContinent wrote:


Maybe because when I was a kid I was exposed to different styles of animation- everyday cartoon hour at 7pm aired 90s Disney shows alongside with Moomins, 40s Hanna Barbera shorts, Spanish and French cartoons, early Scooby Doo and former Soviet block animations. Such an exposition make me nearly completely immune to flaws of animation.


Same here. American toy commercials, Weird Italian cartoons, British stuff like Dr. Snuggles, or Simon & his chalk drawings, Robotech & Voltron, Sesame Street animations. A lot of that stuff was badly animated, though I didn't care.

And I still don't care, not just regarding animation, but also video games. I'd rather play a fun game with super simple graphics like "The I of It" or "Tangerine Panic", then wait 1 hr for a boring but super pretty game to load.
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rheiders



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:37 pm Reply with quote
While I might be willing to watch and even enjoy an ugly, cheap-looking series after enough people recommend it to me (I enjoyed Trigun quite a lot), artistic merit tends to have quite a bit of influence over how much I enjoy a series. In fact, I have trouble understanding people who watch a visual medium like animation and don't care about the visual aspects of it at all. If you don't care how it looks, then read a book! Animation is art (as is literature, of course :3), and the animation should be an important and integral piece of an animated work. If the animation doesn't matter, than the work should not be animated. It should be produced in a style more fitting to the creator's intentions. I would agree that overall, story and characters are generally more important, but to disregard art and animation completely seems silly to me. (And I don't appreciate being called "vapid" for thinking this. As a side note, while I haven't seen Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 and can't comment on it, Usagi Drop is very beautiful and well-animated.)

Of course, the artistic quality of a work doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with budget or production values. Competent and interesting direction is much more important to me. Mononoke is a show that would probably be nothing special without its incredibly unique and beautiful art and animation style, but is elevated to something much greater by its aesthetics. It was also clearly animated on a budget. The fact that it cuts corners here and there ultimately has very little to do with the final effect of the show.

As for the "high standards" question, I largely agree with Brian. I don't have time to watch each new show every season, so I skip the ones that don't immediately catch my eye and often end up dropping over half the series I start because I just get busy and they aren't holding my attention enough for me to continue. This past season, I started with nine shows that I was following. Now I am only following four, three of which are continued over from previous seasons. This isn't because I hate anime or because I'm not a "real" fan or anything, but rather because this semester is hell and it's a miracle I have any time for hobbies at all (spring break this week tho! =D). On the other hand, just because I did not follow a series as it was airing doesn't mean I will never ever ever watch it. If I hear good things about it, I'll marathon it later on, no big deal. I didn't catch Madoka Magica as it was airing, but I watched it later after hearing so much praise for it and loved it. It's not the kind of show I usually like, but that didn't matter because people I trust recommended it to me.
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walw6pK4Alo



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:39 pm Reply with quote
I'll watch a low budget and ugly anime if it's interesting enough. It works well for those shorts like Osaka Okan, but there was this little known show from 2007 called Testsuko no Tabi that I want to watch more of. The premise is a mangaka traveling around with a train otaku to various stations on the rail network so she can make about about it, which is apparently all based on a true story, so it's biographical? Anyway, it's ugly as sin and terribly animated, but that matters less if you're engaged by other aspects. Shame that only four episodes were subbed, it will never be licensed, and it's entirely unappealing to people not into trains. Things like these would be picked up by CR nowadays, who are contractually obligated to finish subbing them regardless of their terrible stream numbers.

But art and animation are important for the right kinds of anime. You can't have a good action anime on a shoestring budget, which works for LoGH and Monster, being very conversation oriented and action set pieces are short lived. LoGH might contain massive space battles, but their sheer scope and is more impressive than anything shown when ships fire on one another, or when the personal fighters are launched. It's that 40,000 spaceships are engaged in a single battle that lasts 15 hours, stuff like that.
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BonusStage



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:52 pm Reply with quote
EireformContinent wrote:
Maybe because when I was a kid I was exposed to different styles of animation- everyday cartoon hour at 7pm aired 90s Disney shows alongside with Moomins, 40s Hanna Barbera shorts, Spanish and French cartoons, early Scooby Doo and former Soviet block animations. Such an exposition make me nearly completely immune to flaws of animation.


Confused This reminds me of how spoiled a lot of anime fans are. Art isn't even on my radar when I watch an anime because I know 99 times out of 100 it'll have great if not decent art. If I turn on Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon 99 times out of 100 it'll be stuff that looks like Adventure Time or Regular Show. Characters with potato-shaped bodies and noodle limbs with very basic coloring and design. I don't even think about art when it comes to watchin' anime anymore when I pick a show up because I know it'll probably have beautiful art by default so its not a concern for me. With the stuff I grew up with like Powerpuff Girls and Dexter's Lab it all looked like garbage and it was rare to find a show that even had halfway decent anatomy since I guess most animators here don't care about making their shows look good. It's something you see a lot of anime fans take for granted when they complain about little animation errors.
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Chagen46



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If I turn on Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon 99 times out of 100 it'll be stuff that looks like Adventure Time or Regular Show. Characters with potato-shaped bodies and noodle limbs with very basic coloring and design.


Yeah. It's called cartooning and it's one of the things anime has completely forgot about.

Yeah, Regular Show and Adventure TIme may look simple, but their art, especially in AT, is whimsical and perfectly fits the show. AT alone, through sheer art style, is more artistically interesting than nearly all anime (which tend to take place in real world-esque locations and therefore are good technically but look extremely sterile).

Cartoons are supposed to do things live-action can't. Now, I don't have a problem with "real-world" anime, but I really wish more shows went for more inventive and cartoonish art-styles.
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Crispy45



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Yeah. It's called cartooning and it's one of the things anime has completely forgot about.

Yeah, Regular Show and Adventure TIme may look simple, but their art, especially in AT, is whimsical and perfectly fits the show. AT alone, through sheer art style, is more artistically interesting than nearly all anime (which tend to take place in real world-esque locations and therefore are good technically but look extremely sterile).

Cartoons are supposed to do things live-action can't. Now, I don't have a problem with "real-world" anime, but I really wish more shows went for more inventive and cartoonish art-styles.


>_> John K is that you?

Also unique =\= good. Just because it's a "unique" style doesn't make Adventure Time any less ugly and cheap looking. x_x
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walw6pK4Alo



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:18 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Cartoons are supposed to do things live-action can't. Now, I don't have a problem with "real-world" anime, but I really wish more shows went for more inventive and cartoonish art-styles.


There were Kaiba and Dead Leaves, but anime has primarily focused on anatomically correct (except for exaggerated face, exaggeration proportions) human bodies. It's not something they've "forgotten", it's just something they've never really done beyond shows meant for 5 year olds. Even anime that take place in fantastic and unique worlds will still have somewhat conventional humanoid designs. Like Casshern Sins and Gankutsuou have tons of unique visual design and appeal, but the characters still remain noticeably human. But they certainly don't look cheap either. To get most of the "out there" stuff, you have to look for anthologies.

As for any kind of deterministic goal of animation, you have plenty of down to Earth normal-human drama or sports anime that become huge right away, typically based off of manga, like Kyojin no Hoshi, Tiger Mask, Ashita no Joe, Aim for the Ace, and so on. At least, that's what's remembered 40 years on.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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