Forum - View topic
Anime in Ultra HD at either 4K/8K resolution in the future?


Goto page 1, 2  Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:46 pm Reply with quote
I don't know if anybody ever got into this topic of Ultra High definition aka 4K and 8K resolution. I know NHK Science & Technology in Japan is the one that are into the R&D of Ultra high definition, so maybe there is a possibility that anime could be shown at this resolution.

We're now seeing 4k UHDTV being showcase and also on sales like these from LG for example. We're seeing some movies being optimized and released in 4K for blu-ray like Battle: Los Angeles for example. Heck even Xbox One and PS4 will support 4K images/video. I've seen 4k resolution on a UHDTV at a store and I was amazed and mesmerized by how super clear and detail the images are, it's more sharper and more detail then HDTV that displayed 1080P resolution. Could you imagine anime being shown in detail beyond 1080P?

My question to any of you that watch anime at HD and are familiar with ultra high definition, can anime be push beyond 1080P, is it possible to see anime at 4k or even at 8K resolution? I like to hear it from you? To Moderator: Please feel free to speak up on this if you know about 4K and 8K resolution.

EDIT: Ok looks like 4k and 8K has been brought up on ANN, but not about anime.

[EDIT: Made your thread title a little less long-winded. -TK]


Last edited by mdo7 on Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:50 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8198
Location: IL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:21 pm Reply with quote
It'll just be upscaled. 4k is pretty worthless at this point for anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vracer111



Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Currently there are enough issues with getting good releases in 1080p, anime movies are the best way to go for overall quality as a group. I'd rather see excellent releases in 1080p that got rid of color banding which is found in most releases and 5.1 HD audio tracks standard, before going to 4k+ resolution. There's enough issues getting good 1080p resolution from lower resolution masters as well - not all companies give it their best. Shows with the original data files the masters were made from should be able to scale to 4k+ fine.

On my system a good 1080p anime looks detailed enough for no complaints or wishes for higher resolution from Blu-Rays. I'm projecting onto a 110" screen and have a high quality 7.2 channel capable sound system. A 110" screen will bring out image issues compared to smaller screens and as long as the content is presented properly, 1080p is fine enough....my system looks no worse than the excellent modern projection you view in HD theaters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Vracer111 wrote:
Currently there are enough issues with getting good releases in 1080p, anime movies are the best way to go for overall quality as a group. I'd rather see excellent releases in 1080p that got rid of color banding which is found in most releases and 5.1 HD audio tracks standard, before going to 4k+ resolution. There's enough issues getting good 1080p resolution from lower resolution masters as well - not all companies give it their best. Shows with the original data files the masters were made from should be able to scale to 4k+ fine.

On my system a good 1080p anime looks detailed enough for no complaints or wishes for higher resolution from Blu-Rays. I'm projecting onto a 110" screen and have a high quality 7.2 channel capable sound system. A 110" screen will bring out image issues compared to smaller screens and as long as the content is presented properly, 1080p is fine enough....my system looks no worse than the excellent modern projection you view in HD theaters.


I see, thanks for your imput. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: earth
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:06 pm Reply with quote
just wait for maybe around year 2019-2020. they will start to make 4k+ resolution shows in Japan, not just anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Spotlesseden wrote:
just wait for maybe around year 2019-2020. they will start to make 4k+ resolution shows in Japan, not just anime.


Uh, actually Japan will do it's first broadcast in 4K July of next year, I actually put a link to ANN article about it on my first post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bango



Joined: 06 Jul 2013
Posts: 1122
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:17 pm Reply with quote
This reminds me of when 720p was just raising it's head and some sub group put up an episode of... I think it was Air in, like, 5760 x 3240. The file was something stupid like 50gb and wouldn't play on anything. It was a hilarious poke at "numbers over actual quality" problem that was so abundant back then.

I think we'll eventually see stuff in those resolutions just because technology and media are constantly expanding. Especially since more and more CG effects are being used. It'll no doubt look awesome when it's done properly but we have a long road of nobody doing it right to get through first.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9321
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:19 am Reply with quote
Analog anime can certainly be rescanned at 4k, but it would likely only benefit expensive movies on good quality 35mm film stock, as 16mm seems to tap out at 1080p for usefulness. Giant Robo was one such example that I know of so far that had a 4k scan. I'm sure more will follow in the future, but the BluRay is still 1080p, so you'd require another format and another television to see the full benefits of that kind of restorative work.

As for digital anime, they're just barely making it to 1080p native production as it stands today, likely reserved only for movies and maybe a few OVAs. I think only a handful of shows are above 900p, and they're probably KyoAni's. I heard the last season of Nyaruko was supposed to be native 1080p, but I don't think it really makes a difference when the show isn't detailed enough to note any difference. Pretty much everything else falls between 720p and ~900p, so most 1080p BDs are still just upscales. I doubt they'd have the resources to make it look presentable on any resolution larger than that for a long while.

The 4k broadcast next year means nothing to anime unless some studio pours efforts into a presentation piece, but full-scale UHD production isn't the horizon. The difference between capturing live action with a 4k camera and animation is, the size of the paper an animator draws on is limited. How far can you expand that? I guess every single shot of 4k digital anime would have to be some kind of vector.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Thanks for the input, for anyone that are familiar with 4k/8k resolution and anime video quality, please feel free to express your thought and your views on this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3335
Location: The Undernet
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:54 am Reply with quote
Can the human eye even tell the difference between 4K and 8K resolution? Ultimately we're just training our eyes to demand a higher resolution but at some point the limits of our visual capability will surpass the practicality of advancing technology.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime
One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:53 am Reply with quote
Past wrote:
Can the human eye even tell the difference between 4K and 8K resolution? Ultimately we're just training our eyes to demand a higher resolution but at some point the limits of our visual capability will surpass the practicality of advancing technology.

If I understand correctly the 4K/8K is not just about better detail (4K closer to 35mm) and color but also screen size and the distance you sit from it. 4K is not going to do much for your 32 inch plasma, but those 55 to 80 inch at 1080p force you to sit much further back. This requires not just a large wall space to hang the tv but a pretty large room to sit far enough back to enjoy it. So instead of needing a "theater room" for your big screen, you should be able to have it in your living room. I heard that Sony is trying to shoot as much as possible in 4K with an eye towards the future. Still most people have upgraded to 1080p fairly recently, so I don't think 4K will gain traction for another 3-5 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:55 am Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
Still most people have upgraded to 1080p fairly recently, so I don't think 4K will gain traction for another 3-5 years.

It may gain more traction in Japan than it will in the US, as I've read several statements from entertainment executives which aren't going to support 4k broadcasts in the US until there's substantial demand from the public, and that's going to be iffy.

In truth, most people haven't upgraded to 1080p recently, as 720p sets outsell 1080p sets nearly 3:1 because people look at price as a factor for a new "big screen" TV than resolution itself. Several studies have indicated most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p, and most have stated 720p is "good enough" for viewing.

Most TVs will downscale a 1080 show when the TV's max is 720p, and while some distortion does occur, it's no where as noticeable as upscaling from 480/720 to 1080, which people seem to notice more.

Upscaling can introduce color banding and "fuzzy" views, especially if the person has been watching content in 1080p for some time. Anyone who streams can clearly see the difference between lower resolution vs. 1080 streams.

The larger TV only enhances this problem, which is why 4k is being pushed heavily. 4k TVs remove the minimum distance required for the sheer number of pixels presented, but it's going to be difficult to sell a US market this "clarity", at least not for a while.

I'm content with 1080p, as I can easily watch it without wearing glasses. With animation in 4k, all I can say is that there is such a thing as "too sharp", and with today's 1080 anime, I can notice the sharp lines and jaggies, something I didn't notice in the old 480 resolution.

Color banding is also extremely noticeable, especially with darker hues, and I'm not fond of seeing this pixelation on my screen. It's not just limited to anime, either. Was watching Hemlock Grove over the weekend and much of its dark setting imposed banding. Ew.

I'm not opposed to 4k, but there had better be some exceptional value in its delivery, and the price of televisions are going to have to meet current price tags, rather than gouge early adopters because it's "new".

If the price doesn't fall quickly, 4k is going to take at least a decade, if not more, to be welcomed in the US, and that's a blow if the world's leading entertainment industry doesn't adopt it as a "standard".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EricJ



Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:12 am Reply with quote
Mesonoxian Eve wrote:

It may gain more traction in Japan than it will in the US, as I've read several statements from entertainment executives which aren't going to support 4k broadcasts in the US until there's substantial demand from the public, and that's going to be iffy.


Like the birth of HDTV, Japan would have to get a LOT more obsessed with 4K than we are right now.
That's not realisticallyi out of the realm of possibility Rolling Eyes , but somehow, I just keep picturing even THEIR finding it too pointless to pursue.

4K-Mania of the Future is an artificial construct, being pursued by a superstitious industry that just doesn't know how this whole darn thing works.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9321
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:30 am Reply with quote
The other aspect to upgrading aside from the cost of a new set is that, what are you going to watch? Bandwidth constraints in the US barely allows 720p and 1080i as it is, there's no way TV companies will be able to provide anything greater without undue cost to their subscribers. For home consumption, you'll probably need to rely on some kind of internet delivery, as we'll need a format that's even larger than BD to gain any benefit from 4k. As much of a small luxury as HDTVs are today, these UHD sets will only be ultra luxury items.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:47 am Reply with quote
Mesonoxian Eve wrote:
One-Eye wrote:
Still most people have upgraded to 1080p fairly recently, so I don't think 4K will gain traction for another 3-5 years.
In truth, most people haven't upgraded to 1080p recently...
You are probably right about that I shouldn't have said most have gone to 1080. I should have said many people have upgraded to HD.
Quote:
...720p sets outsell 1080p sets nearly 3:1 because people look at price as a factor for a new "big screen" TV than resolution itself.
True enough price and people's budgets matter, but prices have also continued to fall. A 32 inch that might have cost you 1k a few years ago can be had for $250-300 and some of those come with 1080p. I've seen conflicting studies that say HDTV adoption is anywhere from 50% to 80%. If its on the lower end and there are still many analog sets out there then its only a matter of time before those people upgrade and if 4K sets force 1080 sets down in price we might see an uptick in overall HDTV adoption. On the other hand, if adoption of HDTV is actually higher then that would certainly delay 4k because as you pointed out 720 and consequently 1080 would be good enough.

Quote:
The larger TV only enhances this problem, which is why 4k is being pushed heavily. 4k TVs remove the minimum distance required for the sheer number of pixels presented, but it's going to be difficult to sell a US market this "clarity", at least not for a while.
I agree and as you mentioned most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p.

Quote:
If the price doesn't fall quickly, 4k is going to take at least a decade, if not more, to be welcomed in the US, and that's a blow if the world's leading entertainment industry doesn't adopt it as a "standard".
I had read previously that something like 40-50% of movie theaters in the US use 4K HD projectors, so it does seem to growing within the entertainment industry. Broadcasters are a different story and they may not see an incentive to go to 4K and then there is bandwidth considerations which is something that I think might really hold things back. But if Sony is recording even tv shows in 4K then there might be content to be purchased in some kind of format.

EricJ wrote:
Mesonoxian Eve wrote:

It may gain more traction in Japan than it will in the US, as I've read several statements from entertainment executives which aren't going to support 4k broadcasts in the US until there's substantial demand from the public, and that's going to be iffy.
Like the birth of HDTV, Japan would have to get a LOT more obsessed with 4K than we are right now.
That's not realisticallyi out of the realm of possibility Rolling Eyes , but somehow, I just keep picturing even THEIR finding it too pointless to pursue.

4K-Mania of the Future is an artificial construct, being pursued by a superstitious industry that just doesn't know how this whole darn thing works.
I did read somewhere that NHK in Japan is pushing for 8K broadcasting as early as the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group