Forum - View topic
INTEREST: Gundam Director Shinji Takamatsu Responds to NHK's Anime Industry Special


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DRosencraft



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 461
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:26 pm Reply with quote
It is really a shame, but Takamatsu, I believe, is right. Simply saying "double the budget" is easy to say, hard to do. Every industry cuts costs where they can. That money has to come from somewhere. With so many shows relying almost exclusively on disc sales, and with the vitriol that comes any time a disc bundle comes out with any hefty price, there is not really any room for pursuing that end of the model. Anytime a show tries to go the merchandise route to offset the costs of production, it gets slammed for "only trying to sell toys/etc."

The other popular suggestion, cutting the number of shows produced, is a band aid on the larger issue. Fewer shows will only mean more folks out of work in the anime industry, but folks who are working only doing so in the same conditions. Producers are still going to keep trying to make as much profit as possible, and that means keeping labor costs as low as possible. Just because the number of shows produced a year gets cut in half, doesn't mean paychecks are going to rise by anywhere near an equitable amount. That's just not how businesses work.

The anime viewing community has to accept change. There aren't a lot of revenue streams to tap into. Streaming subscriptions, disc costs, merchandise prices, are going to have to go up. Series are going to have to do more tie-ins with businesses to cover costs. TV airings in Japan will probably have to make more time for commercials. With everyone involved in the process saying they aren't making enough money, either someone in the line takes a big cut, swallows what they've got going now, or you have to find a way to pull in more cash.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kiminobokuwa



Joined: 18 Sep 2015
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 pm Reply with quote
I agree with the guy above^^^
Takamatsu is right. There is no easy solution to the low wages animators get, and I would hate to see the amount of animators decrease because of this. It's a sad reality we live in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2243
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:07 pm Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:
With so many shows relying almost exclusively on disc sales


Licensing fees are apparently pretty significant these days. I'm not sure how sustainable that is though...

DRosencraft wrote:
TV airings in Japan will probably have to make more time for commercials.


Not really. Most anime airs late night where they make virtually nothing from commercials. The series that do air in decent time slots aren't the ones you often hear about hemorrhaging money.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PFdaCIA



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 111
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:52 pm Reply with quote
The Japanese animation industry, as it stands today, dependent on DVD sales and etc., is killing hundreds of franchises of the manga adaptations. It was the fact [although some people are not aware of this] that the very economically stable region [at least outside the anim industry] is still politically and militarily unstable. The first crisis in that region could put the Japanese economy in bankruptcy!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 974
Location: Europe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:16 pm Reply with quote
PFdaCIA wrote:
The Japanese animation industry, as it stands today, dependent on DVD sales and etc., is killing hundreds of franchises of the manga adaptations.
This is only true for original anime.
All the other anime based on manga and Light Novels, depends mostly on how many mangas and light novels are sold during and after the anime is aired, as was discussed in the forums so many times before.
For these kind of anime adaptations, DVD sales are only a extra profit to help recoup the initial investment.

Quote:
Takamatsu said that utilizing technology such as AI and CGI will not help the anime industry because it will put animators who already make low wages out of work.

I agree 100%
Also, anime have a peculiar art and even if sometimes CG can help in some scenes, it should only be used to that. Using techniques that don't use CG is what makes anime so different from the usual cartoons nowadays.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PFdaCIA



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 111
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:26 pm Reply with quote
Jonny Mendes wrote:
PFdaCIA wrote:
The Japanese animation industry, as it stands today, dependent on DVD sales and etc., is killing hundreds of franchises of the manga adaptations.
This is only true for original anime.
All the other anime based on manga and Light Novels, depends mostly on how many mangas and light novels are sold during and after the anime is aired, as was discussed in the forums so many times before.
For these kind of anime adaptations, DVD sales are only a extra profit to help recoup the initial investment.

Quote:
Takamatsu said that utilizing technology such as AI and CGI will not help the anime industry because it will put animators who already make low wages out of work.

I agree 100%
Also, anime have a peculiar art and even if sometimes CG can help in some scenes, it should only be used to that. Using techniques that don't use CG is what makes anime so different from the usual cartoons nowadays.


No, no: I was not talking about the original source of adaptation. Often the sale of DVDs [physical media] are irrelevant, in others not, but not properly necessary for the franchise of the original source, ie, the manga is maintained. I say in the sense that it kills franchises from television series, from adaptation to TV. Many series are well-produced, adapting good manga and somehow becoming famous via online streaming and TV. But they do not gain continuity because nobody wants to buy the physical media. In a survey of top 100 anime that marked the season, there were franchises ranked that deserved continuation, being them of more than one season. However, the low adherence per season was causing sales to become irrelevant.

So for TV and Streaming online the franchises die. It was in that sense that I meant it. The original material will always sell, regardless of the adaptation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 974
Location: Europe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:34 pm Reply with quote
PFdaCIA wrote:


No, no: I was not talking about the original source of adaptation. Often the sale of DVDs [physical media] are irrelevant, in others not, but not properly necessary for the franchise of the original source, ie, the manga is maintained. I say in the sense that it kills franchises from television series, from adaptation to TV. Many series are well-produced, adapting good manga and somehow becoming famous via online streaming and TV. But they do not gain continuity because nobody wants to buy the physical media. In a survey of top 100 anime that marked the season, there were franchises ranked that deserved continuation, being them of more than one season. However, the low adherence per season was causing sales to become irrelevant.

So for TV and Streaming online the franchises die. It was in that sense that I meant it. The original material will always sell, regardless of the adaptation.


Are you talking if a anime will have multiple seasons or if is only a 1 cour anime and if a bad DVD sales will affect the making of more seasons? (sorry, because English is not my first language sometimes im lost in translation)


Last edited by Jonny Mendes on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:36 pm Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:

The other popular suggestion, cutting the number of shows produced, is a band aid on the larger issue. Fewer shows will only mean more folks out of work in the anime industry, but folks who are working only doing so in the same conditions. Producers are still going to keep trying to make as much profit as possible, and that means keeping labor costs as low as possible. Just because the number of shows produced a year gets cut in half, doesn't mean paychecks are going to rise by anywhere near an equitable amount. That's just not how businesses work.


Ehh, no, not really. I mean, yeah, that is how business works, but the ideal here is to increase the amount of money allotted to each production, increase the production values to each of those productions, and decrease the overall number or productions. This is the kind of thing that is sustainable. It's what KyoAni does right now and it works just great for them. The problem is of course that moving to that model is incredibly challenging and risky, it literally goes against any short term economic logic, and because of all of that, it will need a significant catalyst. I'm all for free markets, but I think this is a case where regulation would really need to be enforced that forces the change in the industry. The idea that they don't have money is starting to become less valid. China is throwing fist-fulls of the stuff at them, they just don't want to take it and are doing a horrible job of utilizing what they do take because they don't want to give up their financial control, and also because the production committee system is completely dysfunctional, in my opinion. Streaming revenue is also much more substantial than I think Takamatsu is letting on. Maybe he doesn't look at the numbers, but they are pretty noteworthy while disc sales are pretty insignificant.
Ultimately, I think Takamatsu is being too much of an apologist, he's living in the past, and his stubbornness is blinding him from any potential solutions. The situation is pretty abysmal, but he seems to be grumpily whining about how any change is useless. That's not a very productive mindset. Don't just wait for it to collapse, work to fix the problems as much as you can. There are a number of studios making changes internally to that end, and we should definitely be praising and encouraging them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
PFdaCIA



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 111
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Jonny Mendes wrote:
PFdaCIA wrote:


No, no: I was not talking about the original source of adaptation. Often the sale of DVDs [physical media] are irrelevant, in others not, but not properly necessary for the franchise of the original source, ie, the manga is maintained. I say in the sense that it kills franchises from television series, from adaptation to TV. Many series are well-produced, adapting good manga and somehow becoming famous via online streaming and TV. But they do not gain continuity because nobody wants to buy the physical media. In a survey of top 100 anime that marked the season, there were franchises ranked that deserved continuation, being them of more than one season. However, the low adherence per season was causing sales to become irrelevant.

So for TV and Streaming online the franchises die. It was in that sense that I meant it. The original material will always sell, regardless of the adaptation.



Are you talking if a anime will have multiple seasons or if is only a 1 cour anime and if a bad DVD sales will affect the making of more seasons? (sorry, because English is not my first language sometimes im lost in translation)


Nor is it my language. Even so, I have become accustomed to understanding the translator's semantics when it comes out crooked. Yes, I mean more seasons in a series, giving her a closed end. That's what I meant by "several franchises die because of selling DVDs" and so on.

And speaking of the CGI issue you mentioned: I think CGI works well for scenery, but only when it involves some sort of action scene. Studio Wit in Attack on Titan [except for that Colossal Lol Titan] makes exquisite use in action scenes for 3D-motion moves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 974
Location: Europe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:48 pm Reply with quote
relyat08 wrote:


China is throwing fist-fulls of the stuff at them, they just don't want to take it and are doing a horrible job of utilizing what they do take because they don't want to give up their financial control, and also because the production committee system is completely dysfunctional, in my opinion. Streaming revenue is also much more substantial than I think Takamatsu is letting on. Maybe he doesn't look at the numbers, but they are pretty noteworthy while disc sales are pretty insignificant.
Ultimately, I think Takamatsu is being too much of an apologist, he's living in the past, and his stubbornness is blinding him from any potential solutions. The situation is pretty abysmal, but he seems to be grumpily whining about how any change is useless. That's not a very productive mindset. Don't just wait for it to collapse, work to fix the problems as much as you can. There are a number of studios making changes internally to that end, and we should definitely be praising and encouraging them.


Japanese system is: If it works, don't touch it. Only when stop working, fixed it.

Also they don't like imprevisibility, and streaming is something that can work now and make lots of profits, but stop working next season. It only takes some trouble in the East China Sea and a boycott from China on anime streaming, to stops the money flow.
They prefer to look on something more stable like the Japanese market,

Also in a cultural sense they don't want to give control to China on what the anime can and can't show.

PFdaCIA wrote:
Yes, I mean more seasons in a series, giving her a closed end. That's what I meant by "several franchises die because of selling DVDs" and so on.


Once again, new seasons are dependent on DVD's sales if is a anime original.

For manga/LN adaption it depends on what the publisher is aiming, in the matter of manga/LN sales. If the anime was successful in pushing the sales of manga and LN, them the probability of more seasons is high, even if don't sold that many DVDs.

Sometimes people wonder, why some anime that was a fail in DVD's numbers in getting more seasons.Than if you look at sales of manga and LN and see a increase, depending if that increase are meeting the Publisher sales goals, you will find the reason for the more seasons.

Also sometimes DVD sales are great, but the anime don't helped the sales of manga and LN's. Then there are no new seasons.

What i mean is that DVD sales are to be looked in perceptive. We have to see if the sales of DVDs are important (original anime) or don't have much importance (LN/anime)adaptations.
Of course there are exceptions of anime that gain a life of their on having multiple seasons and are not dependent on LN sales because have more sources of profit. Anime like Zero no Tsukaima, Slayers, Shakugan no Shana, SAO and High Schooll D X D. But these are exceptions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aifhak



Joined: 06 Jan 2016
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:50 am Reply with quote
The idea that only the source material sales or only the disc sales matter are both equally unlikely.
There are a lot of different groups chipping in to fund anime for every project and every one of those groups has different interests. So for example, as has been stated in here, saying that the boost the manga or LN gets is all the people care is obviously not true since the people who are chipping in money to get rights to sell the music won't get anything out of manga/LN sales and couldn't care less about those manga/LN sales.
Likewise with other aspects, they all matter and if you only get LN/manga sales while the show tanks in every other possible thing you could imagine you're going to have people who are losing money outside of the publisher of the source material and thus will think twice about doing something like that again.

Likewise the idea that it's an industry that relies soley on disc sales to recoup the costs seems to be something a bit of the past. I know people always claim that the money they get from companies overseas must be peanuts and doesn't even make a difference but if this can be trusted:
http://aja.gr.jp/?wpdmdl=1005 (and I think it can) you can see that since 2015 the revenue they're getting from overseas seems to be the biggest portion by now.

So I'd personally take this all with a grain of salt. Yeah disc sales are down and all that, for sure but as long as they don't close their eyes stubbornly holding on to those old ways I don't really see it as this big disaster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6659
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:02 am Reply with quote
relyat08 wrote:
Ehh, no, not really. I mean, yeah, that is how business works, but the ideal here is to increase the amount of money allotted to each production, increase the production values to each of those productions, and decrease the overall number or productions. This is the kind of thing that is sustainable. It's what KyoAni does right now and it works just great for them. The problem is of course that moving to that model is incredibly challenging and risky, it literally goes against any short term economic logic, and because of all of that, it will need a significant catalyst. I'm all for free markets, but I think this is a case where regulation would really need to be enforced that forces the change in the industry.
Indeed, some reforms are needed to make labor an area where they can't cut costs (as much), and make the production committee players cancel Theoretical Anime E to spread those investments among Anime A, B, C, and D instead. After all, the problem from the worker standpoint isn't a shortage of work, it's that there's too much and it doesn't pay enough. Animator burnout should eventually create a situation where the labor supply decreases enough to force wages higher in order for companies to retain sufficient talent, though if studios are going bankrupt left and right, the labor supply decrease gets offset.

And if the production committee players only care about manga/LN sales, then maybe we'll need to reach a point where the quality of anime output drops so much that it negatively affects fans' perception of the source material to see substantial change. "We can can spend X yen to fund 4 shoddy series this season, and see our book sales flatline or decline, or 3 half-decent ones, and get a healthy sales boost." The trick is getting them to spend .33X instead of .25X on each of those 3 shows.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
AJ (LordNikon)



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 416
Location: Tokyo & Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:53 am Reply with quote
I need to start out by clearly stating I have nearly fifty years working in the media on a senior level, so my comment is more from experience, and less from an repeating from others.

A huge part of the issue is over-saturation in the market. There is too much of the medium competing for too few ¥¥¥. It's a buyers market and in the end that is hurting this industry.

While it would really hurt to cut the number of animators in the field by cutting the number of shows produced by half, those who are talented will stand out and rise to the top. It becomes a seller's market and the pay will increase as studio's fight for the best talent.

Sure, a lot of people from the lower decks are going to have to transition in to other career, but that's life, and despite all the crap we tell our (grand)kids bout following their dreams, in the grown up world reality kicks in and we have to suck it up that life happens.

At the end of the day, studios will fight to get the best talent, quality goes up, and fewer studios fighting over the same dollars.

Aside from this, I agree completely with Mr. Takamatsu.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 974
Location: Europe
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:40 am Reply with quote
aifhak wrote:
The idea that only the source material sales or only the disc sales matter are both equally unlikely.
There are a lot of different groups chipping in to fund anime for every project and every one of those groups has different interests. So for example, as has been stated in here, saying that the boost the manga or LN gets is all the people care is obviously not true since the people who are chipping in money to get rights to sell the music won't get anything out of manga/LN sales and couldn't care less about those manga/LN sales.
Likewise with other aspects, they all matter and if you only get LN/manga sales while the show tanks in every other possible thing you could imagine you're going to have people who are losing money outside of the publisher of the source material and thus will think twice about doing something like that again.

Likewise the idea that it's an industry that relies soley on disc sales to recoup the costs seems to be something a bit of the past. I know people always claim that the money they get from companies overseas must be peanuts and doesn't even make a difference but if this can be trusted:
http://aja.gr.jp/?wpdmdl=1005 (and I think it can) you can see that since 2015 the revenue they're getting from overseas seems to be the biggest portion by now.

So I'd personally take this all with a grain of salt. Yeah disc sales are down and all that, for sure but as long as they don't close their eyes stubbornly holding on to those old ways I don't really see it as this big disaster

What I was talking about is the possibility of more seasons. And there is here the LN/manga sales enter for the decision of more seasons. Of course the other sales are important in some cases, like the examples i refer were LN sales turned more irrelevant.

But in most cases that is what happen. And publishers are more than happy to refund the other partners in the case of losses on DVD and music sales. As long as their on sales is enough.
As i said before, for Publishers, anime is a investment to help sales of manga/LN.
And the other partners are important to help the funding. Important but not essential.
Big publishers can fund anime on their on, but if other partners can help, the better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Banjo



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 765
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:42 am Reply with quote
PFdaCIA wrote:
The Japanese animation industry, as it stands today, dependent on DVD sales and etc., is killing hundreds of franchises of the manga adaptations. It was the fact [although some people are not aware of this] that the very economically stable region [at least outside the anim industry] is still politically and militarily unstable. The first crisis in that region could put the Japanese economy in bankruptcy!


the first crisis in that region gonna spark WW3 in no time.. and its gonna happen in less than 10 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group