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EP. REVIEW: My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU Climax


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cchigu



Joined: 15 Feb 2020
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:45 pm Reply with quote
I, for one, believe Oregairu to be the one of the best written franchise in the whole medium, yes, I consider it on the same level as 3-gatsu no Lion and LotGH. It is always nice to see someone appreciating Oregairu. Thanks reviewer!
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ailblentyn
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Location: body in Ohio, heart in Sydney
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:28 pm Reply with quote
A reviewer who appreciates the achievement of the second season is worth listening to. I haven't looked forward to any anime as much as this third season in a while!

It was a pity when people who had only seen the first episode or two formed a false impression (smart-alec MC with his harem is a smug viewer insert) and wrote the series off.
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Blood-
Aria CompanyAria Company


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Yes, that review was incredibly useful for helping me understanding things that blew by me. I totally hadn't gotten that Yukino had resurrected an old dream of taking over from her father. My assumption is that won't pan out, but will lead her to her "real" dream... whatever that will be. A lot of shows I can suss out on my own, but I admit fully I am going to need help with this one.
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Dr.N0



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:49 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Yes, that review was incredibly useful for helping me understanding things that blew by me. [...] A lot of shows I can suss out on my own, but I admit fully I am going to need help with this one.
Same thing for me: this was the best explanation of the series' character dynamics I never knew I sorely needed. Thank you, Mr. Eisenbeis!
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:09 pm Reply with quote
What a load of nonsense that was. The reviewer turned this series about three into the "It's all about Yukino" show.

Hey, here's an idea: Yukino decided to take of the Prom event herself because she noticed Iroha was moving in on Hachiman again and she told as much to Iroha's face.

1 Iroha said she hoped Hayama would be prom king this year and it's her goal to be queen.
2 Yukino told her to her face that she wouldn't be queen until the following year.
3 Prior to all that, Iroha asked Hachiman if he could be around for next year. The girl's a lot more cunning than most people give her credit for.

So in a preemptive move, Yukino pulls the "I'm going to do it all myself" routine that Hachiman was about to do.

Codependency... how does not telling Yui or Hachiman about how Yukino was in the car that hit Hachiman at the start of the year has to do with that? Or the fact she never cared at all about the person she took out for several months?

Quote:
• Yukino's codependence—and her struggle to get away from it—is likely why she refused to be Hachiman's friend back in season one.


Yeah, this going to be hard.... but fun.

My own take on Yukino.... Codependency?... is that she has a lack of empathy which leaves her cold and distant to most people around her. Hachiman has empathy but he chooses to be separate which is a fairly different situation.

To use the example from the show, it's the difference between diving in front of a car to save a dog to not caring about dog or person... and that line from Yukino's sister about the car not having a scratch on it when Hachiman stared at it? I think it's the whole family, it's not a family of nice people.

Codependency...
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dm



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 553
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 pm Reply with quote
ailblentyn wrote:
It was a pity when people who had only seen the first episode or two formed a false impression (smart-alec MC with his harem is a smug viewer insert) and wrote the series off.


I probably punted at the pre-season synopsis of the premise of the first series. I didn't come to this series until people started talking about how good the second season was.

However, it's been long enough I need to go back and review the previous two series --- these episodes make it clear that the reviewing will be rewarded (I was mostly lost watching these episodes, but could see that there's probably a lot of depth behind what's going on).
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jdnation



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1294
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Man it's been awhile, and I don't recall much of the intracacies about this show, so I'm just winging it and hoping it'll come back to me as I watch it.
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Richard Eisenbeis



Joined: 17 Dec 2018
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:25 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
What a load of nonsense that was. The reviewer turned this series about three into the "It's all about Yukino" show.

Hey, here's an idea: Yukino decided to take of the Prom event herself because she noticed Iroha was moving in on Hachiman again and she told as much to Iroha's face.

1 Iroha said she hoped Hayama would be prom king this year and it's her goal to be queen.
2 Yukino told her to her face that she wouldn't be queen until the following year.
3 Prior to all that, Iroha asked Hachiman if he could be around for next year. The girl's a lot more cunning than most people give her credit for.

So in a preemptive move, Yukino pulls the "I'm going to do it all myself" routine that Hachiman was about to do.

Codependency... how does not telling Yui or Hachiman about how Yukino was in the car that hit Hachiman at the start of the year has to do with that? Or the fact she never cared at all about the person she took out for several months?

Quote:
• Yukino's codependence—and her struggle to get away from it—is likely why she refused to be Hachiman's friend back in season one.


Yeah, this going to be hard.... but fun.

My own take on Yukino.... Codependency?... is that she has a lack of empathy which leaves her cold and distant to most people around her. Hachiman has empathy but he chooses to be separate which is a fairly different situation.

To use the example from the show, it's the difference between diving in front of a car to save a dog to not caring about dog or person... and that line from Yukino's sister about the car not having a scratch on it when Hachiman stared at it? I think it's the whole family, it's not a family of nice people.

Codependency...


Far be it from me to tell you how to interpret your art. I can only talk about how the work speaks to me and how I interpret the things I have seen on screen. That said, here’s some of the things that I have based my codependency interpretation on.

• From the time she agrees to help Hachiman get something “real,” she little-by-little gives up her agency to her friends--reforming her life to make them happy. (SNAFU 2, ep8)

• She goes to the theme park--even though she clearly doesn’t want to as being in large crowds literally hurts her. (SNAFU 2, ep9)

• She changes her school major path from the sciences to liberal arts (ostensibly because that is Yui and Hachiman’s school major path)--something that shocks both her mother and sister so much they have Haruno move in with her. (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• At first, Hachiman believes their newfound closeness to be due to a newly built trust but Haruno tells him it’s something more sinister--i.e., codependency? (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• Hachiman doesn’t believe Haruno until Yukino repeats word-for-word Hachiman’s excuse for her staying over at Yui’s--showing she is putting in no input of her own and mindlessly doing whatever her friends suggest. Yui and Hachiman exchange shocked glances at this. (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• But all this aside, this is how Yukino literally describes herself using fish in an aquarium as a metaphor:
Quote:
“If it has nowhere to go, it’ll never find the place where it belongs. It will hide, ride the current, follow something else, and crash into walls it can’t see.”
(SNAFU 2, ep13)

• In the climax Yui says:
Quote:
“I know how to solve the problem you’re facing right now, Yukinon. I’m pretty sure that’s the solution to our problem as well. And so when I win I’ll take it all.”
--meaning “I can solve all your problems if you give up control of your life to me.” (SNAFU 2, ep13)

• About this plan, Haichiman thinks thinks to himself
Quote:
“Yukinoshita leaving her future in someone else’s hands is absolutely unacceptable.”
and then interrupts Yukino in mid-acceptance of giving control of her life over to Yui to say,
Quote:
“No. I can’t accept your proposal. Yukinoshita ought to solve her problems herself. Besides, that’s nothing but… nothing but deceit. I don’t want any vague answers or superficial relationships. Even so, I want us to think, writhe, struggle, and find…”
(SNAFU 2, ep13)

• This points out to Yukino the codependency trap she has fallen into. She rejects Yui’s proposal saying “Don’t you tell me how I feel.” Then, instead of having Yui decide for her, she instead asks that they hear her request--help her in what she has decided for herself. (SNAFU 2, ep13)

Well, there you have it. I hope that even if you still don’t agree with my interpretation, you can at least see where I am coming from.
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Richard Eisenbeis



Joined: 17 Dec 2018
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:29 pm Reply with quote
dm wrote:
However, it's been long enough I need to go back and review the previous two series --- these episodes make it clear that the reviewing will be rewarded (I was mostly lost watching these episodes, but could see that there's probably a lot of depth behind what's going on).


No joke. I went back and re-watched both series before writing this review.
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Sekaro



Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:47 am Reply with quote
ailblentyn wrote:
A reviewer who appreciates the achievement of the second season is worth listening to. I haven't looked forward to any anime as much as this third season in a while!

It was a pity when people who had only seen the first episode or two formed a false impression (smart-alec MC with his harem is a smug viewer insert) and wrote the series off.

Well to be fair, I first heard of this series in a commercial in Animax. That commercial definitely made the series look exactly like what u described. Nevertheless, I decided to give it a shot and I'm glad I did.
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Blood-
Aria CompanyAria Company


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20564
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:15 am Reply with quote
Richard, thank you for taking the time to explain your interpretation so thoroughly! I find it so persuasive I'm not sure I can even call it an "interpretation"... it feels more like "fact." We are in very good reviewer hands with this title.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 3497
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:47 am Reply with quote
Richard Eisenbeis wrote:
Animegomaniac wrote:
What a load of nonsense that was. The reviewer turned this series about three into the "It's all about Yukino" show.

Hey, here's an idea: Yukino decided to take of the Prom event herself because she noticed Iroha was moving in on Hachiman again and she told as much to Iroha's face.

1 Iroha said she hoped Hayama would be prom king this year and it's her goal to be queen.
2 Yukino told her to her face that she wouldn't be queen until the following year.
3 Prior to all that, Iroha asked Hachiman if he could be around for next year. The girl's a lot more cunning than most people give her credit for.

So in a preemptive move, Yukino pulls the "I'm going to do it all myself" routine that Hachiman was about to do.

Codependency... how does not telling Yui or Hachiman about how Yukino was in the car that hit Hachiman at the start of the year has to do with that? Or the fact she never cared at all about the person she took out for several months?

Quote:
• Yukino's codependence—and her struggle to get away from it—is likely why she refused to be Hachiman's friend back in season one.


Yeah, this going to be hard.... but fun.

My own take on Yukino.... Codependency?... is that she has a lack of empathy which leaves her cold and distant to most people around her. Hachiman has empathy but he chooses to be separate which is a fairly different situation.

To use the example from the show, it's the difference between diving in front of a car to save a dog to not caring about dog or person... and that line from Yukino's sister about the car not having a scratch on it when Hachiman stared at it? I think it's the whole family, it's not a family of nice people.

Codependency...


Far be it from me to tell you how to interpret your art. I can only talk about how the work speaks to me and how I interpret the things I have seen on screen. That said, here’s some of the things that I have based my codependency interpretation on.

• From the time she agrees to help Hachiman get something “real,” she little-by-little gives up her agency to her friends--reforming her life to make them happy. (SNAFU 2, ep8)

• She goes to the theme park--even though she clearly doesn’t want to as being in large crowds literally hurts her. (SNAFU 2, ep9)

• She changes her school major path from the sciences to liberal arts (ostensibly because that is Yui and Hachiman’s school major path)--something that shocks both her mother and sister so much they have Haruno move in with her. (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• At first, Hachiman believes their newfound closeness to be due to a newly built trust but Haruno tells him it’s something more sinister--i.e., codependency? (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• Hachiman doesn’t believe Haruno until Yukino repeats word-for-word Hachiman’s excuse for her staying over at Yui’s--showing she is putting in no input of her own and mindlessly doing whatever her friends suggest. Yui and Hachiman exchange shocked glances at this. (SNAFU 2, ep12)

• But all this aside, this is how Yukino literally describes herself using fish in an aquarium as a metaphor:
Quote:
“If it has nowhere to go, it’ll never find the place where it belongs. It will hide, ride the current, follow something else, and crash into walls it can’t see.”
(SNAFU 2, ep13)

• In the climax Yui says:
Quote:
“I know how to solve the problem you’re facing right now, Yukinon. I’m pretty sure that’s the solution to our problem as well. And so when I win I’ll take it all.”
--meaning “I can solve all your problems if you give up control of your life to me.” (SNAFU 2, ep13)

• About this plan, Haichiman thinks thinks to himself
Quote:
“Yukinoshita leaving her future in someone else’s hands is absolutely unacceptable.”
and then interrupts Yukino in mid-acceptance of giving control of her life over to Yui to say,
Quote:
“No. I can’t accept your proposal. Yukinoshita ought to solve her problems herself. Besides, that’s nothing but… nothing but deceit. I don’t want any vague answers or superficial relationships. Even so, I want us to think, writhe, struggle, and find…”
(SNAFU 2, ep13)

• This points out to Yukino the codependency trap she has fallen into. She rejects Yui’s proposal saying “Don’t you tell me how I feel.” Then, instead of having Yui decide for her, she instead asks that they hear her request--help her in what she has decided for herself. (SNAFU 2, ep13)

Well, there you have it. I hope that even if you still don’t agree with my interpretation, you can at least see where I am coming from.


Would like to start at the beginning or just stick to season 2? You sense there's a wall between Yukino, Yui and Hachiman but you refuse to say anything about it beyond that it is removing Yukino's agency and it's making it hard for her to relate to her family and friends?

Allow me to offer up a suggestion: "Guilt", consider that as a root cause rather than going right for the symptom. And while she isn't responsible for putting Hachiman in the hospital... no, we can safely say she wasn't driving but we've yet to get her POV of that day; Maybe she was blameless, maybe she was in a hurry... there is a certain irony for someone in the School Assistance Club, her first act was to put a fellow student in the hospital for four months.
Then she got him as a fellow club member... and then the girl who's dog she almost hit came around... and who asked help on that first big club job, to help the girl make the cookies as a sign of thanks to the guy who saved her dog.
Look, if she's not feeling any sort of guilt towards people she considers her friends for the physical and emotional pain she put them through then she's not their friend.

Codependency...

Yeah, and Yui's playing for Hachiman as their problem is Hachiman. If Yui leaves Yukino in the friendzone, that WOULD solve that problem but I don't know why you changed "problem" to "All your problems" and I really don't know where you got "Give me control of your life". Yui wants Hachiman... I guess it could be twisted in such a way that it could be said Yui wants to control Yukino's emotions but that's immediately negated in Climax episode 2; Yui doesn't want something genuine as she fears she'll be left in the dust by Hachiman's and Yukino's torrid love.

However, I think she's jumping to conclusions as that photo was in an envelope stuck to the bear Yukino got at the park; I think it's less "treasured keepsake", more "commemorative photo that I got on the a same day as my real treasured keepsake, the bear." Yukino could have at least taken it out of the envelope it came in, if it's as important to her as Yui thinks it is.
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GlassesMan



Joined: 19 Jun 2015
Posts: 217
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:03 pm Reply with quote
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say Haruno a sociopath, but I'd definitely agree she's meanspirited and callous.

I've always disliked Haruno. It's clear that she's unhappy, and that's sad, but that doesn't give her free reign to mock teenagers. Of course their struggling with their relationships, she's an adult and they're children.
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Delphisage



Joined: 10 Jul 2020
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:05 pm Reply with quote
How come Bobduh isn't doing this? He did it for Season 2.

Is Bobduh doing any reviews this season?
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Richard Eisenbeis



Joined: 17 Dec 2018
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:40 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:

Would like to start at the beginning or just stick to season 2? You sense there's a wall between Yukino, Yui and Hachiman but you refuse to say anything about it beyond that it is removing Yukino's agency and it's making it hard for her to relate to her family and friends?


Ok, here’s the wall as I see it (up till the end of S2 anyway)--basically each of the three is getting in their own way.

Hatchman’s wall is that he has believed his preconceptions to be truth and acted accordingly:
Quote:
“‘Yugahama Yui is a nice girl.’ I decided that regardless of its veracity.
‘Yukinoshita Yukino is a strong girl.’ And so I burdened her with the ideal image I had of her.” (S2 ep 13)

In other words, he’s so arrogant and focused on his world view, he couldn’t see (perhaps willfully?) their own feelings and problems.(This is also why he refuses to acknowledge they both like him despite how obvious it has become.)

Yui’s wall is that she is afraid of rocking the boat and disturbing the dynamics of her friend group--just like the rest of Hayato’s group. It’s why she ignores Hachiman in class in early episodes and only talks to him when the two are out of sight of her friends. Even when she starts to overcome this--talking to Hatchman directly in class and asking him to walk her to the club--she starts refusing to do romantic-esque things with Hachiman (like have him walk her home at night) because of how it would upset the stalemate that is the love triangle between her, Yukino and Hachiman.

However, over the course of season 2 she decides not to wait forever. In the end, she plans to use Yukino’s codependency--as well as the bet made back in season 1--to get Hatchiman for herself, give Yukino a goal for the future, and keep their friend group together.

Quote:
Yui: “I want it all. What we have now, and what we’ll have in the future. I’m a coward. I play dirty. But I’ve made up my mind. Say Yukinon. Is that battle still on?”
Yukino: “It is. The winner can order the loser to do anything they want.”
Yui: “I know how to solve the problem you’re facing right now, Yukinon. I’m pretty sure that’s the solution to our problem as well. And so when I win, I’ll take it all. [...] It may not be fair, but this is all I could think of. I want us to stay this way forever. What do you think? [...] Are you okay with that, Yukinon?” (S2 ep13)


And as for Yukino, her wall is that she has no dream, no self identity, and falls into codependency if she doesn’t keep others at arms length. (We’ve covered this pretty well I think.)

Animegomaniac wrote:

Allow me to offer up a suggestion: "Guilt", consider that as a root cause rather than going right for the symptom.


Does Yukino feel guilty for the car crash? I’d expect so in some form or fashion--especially the more she gets to know him and care for him. However, it is in no way the root cause of her problems. (In fact, it hasn’t even been directly referenced since season 1 episode 9.) The car crash is just a narrative device to show that the three have been connected as if by fate since even before the series started. As it regards to Yukino, her hiding of her involvement is a wake up call to Hatchiman that he has idealized Yukino unfairly (though he subconsciously continues to do so even after this).
Quote:
“The Yukinoshita Yukino that I’ve known, always beautiful, unable to lie, honest, always standing on her own two feet, without anyone or anything to support her. I’m sure that I held that Yukinoshita Yukino in admiration. I chose to expect things out of her. I chose to force my ideas on her. I chose to feel like I understood her. And so I chose to be disappointed.” (S1 ep9)


Animegomaniac wrote:
Codependency...

Yeah, and Yui's playing for Hachiman as their problem is Hachiman.


I think this is where we have a fundamental disagreement. The way I see it, Yukino’s problem is that she has no goal in life--not that she wants Hatchiman. Don’t get me wrong, she absolutely does want Hatchiman and is completely unsure how to go about progressing any relationship--but that’s unbelievably far from the problem at the core of her very being.

Animegomaniac wrote:
I don't know why you changed "problem" to "All your problems"


“Problem” versus “all your problems:” In Japanese, there is no such thing as plural when it comes to nouns. Thus, it is up to us to decide from context whether they are talking about a single problem or all their problems. You can see which interpretation I chose and why.

Animegomaniac wrote:
However, I think she's jumping to conclusions as that photo was in an envelope stuck to the bear Yukino got at the park; I think it's less "treasured keepsake", more "commemorative photo that I got on the a same day as my real treasured keepsake, the bear." Yukino could have at least taken it out of the envelope it came in, if it's as important to her as Yui thinks it is.


I’d say I undercut how important that photo is. Let me put it this way. How many pictures are there in the main room of Yukino’s apartment? How many posters on the walls or anything framed? None. Her apartment living room is creepily bare. It has furniture but no personality.

Her bedroom is a bit better--though still sparse. She has a bookshelf, some flowers, and a traditional painting on the wall. But the only thing that has any real personality is her bed which is covered in cat stuffed animals--along with the Mickey Mouse panda analogue. Hidden behind this, protected in a bag, is the only photo in her entire apartment--likely the only photo she owns.

Let’s be frank here. She literally sleeps with his picture next to her.

Yukino’s apartment is a reflection of herself. Bare and with no identity. The things she loves, few though they are, are locked away in a room others aren’t allowed to enter (her bed room). And even then, the thing she most cares for is hidden away and protected--and kept closest to her heart.
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