Forum - View topicInconsistent moderation (re: Spoilers)
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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I complained about this before, but using this forum has become kind of like navigating a minefield full of live and dead mines.
Somehow this is OK, and this is OK too, but posting a similar screenshot linked to the same image hosting service (imgur) in another thread is apparently sharing pirated material and linking to pirate sites. (Never mind that the "offending" images were, like the others in the posts linked above, taken from legally purchased materials.) When discussing differences between source material and adaptation, or original show and supplementary materials, etc. in a way that doesn't spoil plot points and twists it's OK not to use spoiler tags, except when it's not OK - without any particular guidelines as to how this is decided other than a particular post being reported or not, which is a) not something that everyday users are aware of, b) very subjective anyway. The rules are no help because going by the rules I'd say this sort of thing can't be considered a spoiler, while others may say anything that is not from the actual anime is automatically a spoiler. (But then what about promotional materials, official websites, interviews released to public...) Posts containing discussion of dialogue and characterization in a show are deleted because they also have some content deemed off-topic; posts containing discussions and opinions on an episode are fully blacked out with spoiler tags because they also have some other content deemed potentially spoilery - so whoever tries to read the post will inevitably read the potentially spoilery content, too. And so on. And then the moderation implies that people should have been aware that they were doing something wrong, except how could they be, when they're not doing something they haven't been doing and haven't seen done without any repercussions elsewhere on the forum. I understand that moderators can't be everywhere all the time, but I would very carefully like to point out that perhaps this should be looked into. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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It's only navigating a minefield if you fail to follow the rules and warnings given to you.
For starters, it has been explained to you numerous times that one reason some posts are left in discussions, while others are not, is due to if they are reported or not by other users. The moderators do not read every thread and every post. We do not have the time. There are times a moderator might choose to leave something in and see if the discussion continues down a certain path, but often questionable material is left in discussions because we simply weren't aware of it. Your recent post was reported by another user which is why it was drawn to the attention of the moderators. Now that you've posted links to other posts of your own, that we were not aware of, we will be reviewing them now as well. So thank you for basically reporting yourself. If links or images are posted that appear to be of scans we normally do remove them to air on the side of caution as most times they are of pirated media. You can claim the scans are from a legal source but if they're posted on a 3rd party website (imgur), as opposed to an official website like Viz for example, and appear to be scans of Japanese material, we only have your word on that. You've also had the spoiler tag situation explained to you many times as well. We've made it clear numerous times that any reference to source material for a currently airing show, or manga, is to be tagged. Period. Regardless of if YOU think the material in question is a spoiler or not. This is not new either. This rule has been in place for a while now because many users were getting tired of, and reporting, others ruining shows with source material spoilers. Whether it was blatant (this happens in the manga/light novel) or strongly inferred (oh my god wait til the next chapter and their powers). It was becoming a real problem and many users were getting tired of it. Rightfully so. Once again, your posts were edited or removed because they were reported by other users for violating this. If others are missed it's because we simply did not see them. Hence why we tell users to report such things so we can review them. You have gone down this personal persecution route several times before as well. You conveniently keep ignoring the fact that your posts continue to be reported by other users. That is why we have edited or removed many of them, and subsequently warned you on topics. Because other users on this forum have reported you (repeatedly) and brought these posts to our attention. When posts are removed or edited you also do not PM moderators to ask why or seek clarification so you might re-post something without the matrial in question. You simply go on tirades trying to edit posts behind a moderator, report moderator posts, or make soapboxing posts in those discussions complaining about posts being removed/edited. We've told you that you can message an admin for further clarification or if you feel a moderator did make an error. Have you? I'll do you a favor and message one myself so they can see your thread here. You've also been told you could make a thread here to air a concern, over derailing other discussions with it. Which is why this is being left here, and not removed, as you did actually post it in the proper area. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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As pointed out, the moderators do not themselves view every single post on the forum. Sometimes a borderline post will go unmoderated because no one reported it to them, other times a very similar post will be moderated because it was brought to the attention of the moderators.
It's like jay-walking, people do it and get away with it when the cops don't see them, but if a cop sees you, you'll get a ticket. You can't say to the cop, "but I jay walk all the time and never got a ticket before." In general, "hard rules" are very hard to apply to something like spoilers. I've stated before that I do not want to institute a lot of hard rules in this forum. We don't want to write an 800-page document full of rules (that no one reads), all the while leaving loopholes that people can try to navigate around. There's generally just one rule here. Be Nice. And there's a lot of corollaries such as, "spoiling an anime for people who haven't seen it isn't nice." Use your head and avoid spoiling anime for people that haven't seen them yet. Never spoil the endings without spoiler tags. Don't spoil important plot details with information from the anime for currently airing anime. Be sympathetic to other people, If you think someone might consider something a spoiler, treat it like a spoiler even if you don't think it's spoiler. Etc. Use your best judgement. When the moderators think you made the wrong judgement call, they'll let you know. If you ignore their advice, or you're a dick about it to them. you'll either be placed on moderation or banned. As for the links to images, we have a pretty firm rule about not linking to pirated material. Once someone scans something (even if they scan it from an official Viz release) and upload it to the internet, they have pirated that material. I will, make an exception to this right now, if you are linking or embedding an image for the purpose of supporting or illustrating a point that you are making in your post, that is okay, so long as the image you are linking to is not on a piracy site, or contain a full pirated copy of the manga in question (so generally imgur should be fine). Please note that you shouldn't embed images that contain spoilers, and if you link to an image that includes spoilers, please include a spoiler warning immediately before or after the link. |
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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@Tempest
Thank you for the clarifications and explanations. I understand most of this - the situation with images and links wasn't clear to me, so thanks for clearing it up. I'll avoid doing it in the future. As for spoilers, I explain my confusion below, but basically it's about how I'd thought I was doing it right, got moderated, but never with a clear explanation as to what exactly I had done wrong - especially considering that 1. things got tagged that weren't spoiling anything (from "in this particular scene the character makes this throwaway joke in the adaptation of the show" to "I liked this episode, thought it was fun"), 2. it was along the same lines that people on the forum do all the time in most threads I visit, without any repercussions. Obviously (to me, anyway) I never ever had the intention of spoiling anything for people. But I got in trouble even after using my best judgement.
It was explained to me once, after I asked clarification about what is accepted and what isn't - and I asked that because of you shouting at me, blacking out my post including spoilery and nonspoilery bits, and not responding to my first request for clarification because I had thought I'd been following rules and using my best judgement. I was doing what I'd been doing, and have seen being done, even now, on this forum, without any warnings or any ramifications and out of seemingly nowhere you come at me with a modhammer. Also, frankly, I'm not sure what to do with a principle that essentially boils down to "it's allowed as long as it's not reported".
See, yet again this is something that I can't make heads or tails of. You're basically threatening me over something that I'd been doing because I had thought it was OK because others have been doing it as well, and also nobody ever told me it shouldn't be done, no rules, nothing. What am I supposed to do with this information? "Your post was reported for doing something that most people on this forum do and you have also been doing without any problems." What the hell, man. Review my posts, delete them, ban me over them, but don't tell me this is consistent and fair moderation.
Once. In the same topic I was talking about above, after my first request for clarification remained unanswered, and my second request for clarification came after you edited another of my posts out. Both my requests came after seeing how my posts have been edited, which included not only an potentially spoilery bits but also things where I simply reflected on how I liked the episode. (How on earth is that a spoiler?) And it wasn't only me who was confused, another poster also asked for clarification.
Thing is, it's been made clear (once, to me) but then I go around the forum and see pretty much everyone making references to source materials for currently airing shows without spoiler tags, hell, the reason I did that in the first place was because I had thought I'd used the spoiler tags correctly and the parts I left untagged were the kind of stuff that neither I, nor anyone else that I saw, had seen tagged previously. Also, in that particular thread the issue wasn't about the source material per se, but the novelization of the anime that was, by all intents and purposes, an original show (so it's not source material but supplementary to the show) and the line that I included was essentially a humorous line of dialogue by a character that was by any sane reasoning completely irrelevant to plot or characterization. Hence my immense confusion.
Yet again we're back to "if it's not reported it's technically allowed" - something I honestly don't know what to do with. THIS is what I refer to as a minefield. Something is OK 99% of the time and then in the 1% it results in a mod striking down my post and shouting about how I should have known better.
No - I did that once. And you know why? Because you have a tendency to include references to users' personal history (without naming any names which doesn't really come across as particularly fair), and in my case you mentioned such a specific, and frankly ridiculous thing ("started argument with female ANN member over breastfeeding" like wtf?) that I couldn't help wondering if you were keeping tabs on me. *shrug*
That's because, y'know - I've no idea when a post I made gets reported. Hell, I "reported" other people's posts simply to ask what made those posts OK and others with the exact same kind of content not OK, and you know what happened to those posts? Nothing. So I draw your attention to someone breaking the rule but because I'm not saying "THIS PERSON IS BREAKING THE RULE, STRIKE THEM DOWN" nothing happens, and I don't get an answer either... again, what is this if not inconsistency?
Yes, I have. More than once, in fact. Never got an answer. See above.
I guess is mostly on me, but... I'm not sure if you have noticed but you have a tendency to come across as fairly aggressive. And considering that, the power imbalance between the two of us, and also my previous experiences, honestly I just haven't had the energy. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
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And what would you like moderators to do? Be on here 24/7 scanning every single post made by every single user? We're volunteers, we have normal jobs and lives. Even if we did do this as a full time 8 hour a day job it would still be impossible. It's not a matter of "it's allowed if it's not reported", it's a case of it's there because we don't know about it. Tempest just gave an analogy (which you did not respond to) regarding jaywalking and a cop seeing it or not. I don't know how much clearer we can get. That is why we tell users to report things so it is brought to our attention. Just because it's not noticed doesn't mean it's ok. An analogy: If you steal a car and nobody notices, you still stole a car. You still broke a law. You just got lucky that nobody noticed. The same goes for users who violate the rules here if we're unaware of it.
As Tempest has already mentioned that's why we have spoiler tags. That's their purpose. If people see them then they can view at their own risk. Another thing to keep in mind is moderators have not read every manga or light novel out there, anymore then we read every post here. If a user has a post reported for spoiler tags, and the moderator is not familiar with the title, we're going to spoiler tag as much as we feel needs to be tagged. So we may tag extra just to be safe. We may also spoiler tag extra for the sheer fact of not wanting the material spoiled for us while we have to moderate the actual post. Every post we have to place spoiler tags on is another show potentially ruined for us. Just something to keep in mind.
Once again you're ignoring the fact that any discrepancies in why some posts of yours have been edited to whatever capacity, and others have not, is because we do not read every post by every user. If your post in thread A & B get reported but your post in thread C does not then there is a good chance that 3rd post will get away without any edits that might actually be warranted. We also cannot give warnings to users if we don't know they have violated a rule or not. We are not omnipresent or mind readers. Once a situation is brought to our attention we can then review it. As to your point about asking for clarification and not getting it once, I already addressed that before as well, but you are continuing to ignore that and act as if it was not given. You were told that no moderator gave you, or the other user in that discussion, any clarification because nobody reported it at first that clarification was needed. Nobody PM'ed the mod to ask. Do you see a trend yet? No virtually no PM's sent to us, and little to no reports given either. Once someone finally did make a report guess what happened? Clarification was given in the thread. Yes you have made some reports. Most are soapboxing tirades where you report the moderators post, or your own, for daring to edit your own posts. Most are also made after the moderator has already posted clearly in the discussion what the issue was, and what not to do. When that clarification was not clearly there, like in the one discussion you've referenced, then it was presented. Reports regarding other users were reviewed as well. We review ALL reports. We are not going to PM every user though regarding every report they make and explain our actions. We do not have the time, and to be blunt discussions between the staff and moderators are between the staff and moderators. If you have questions regarding why something was or was not removed, edited, etc then PM a mod. The last PM I personally have from you is back in April and guess what? I responded. I stopped responding when you started arguing in bad faith and ignoring anything that I was saying. Much as you have done here, and in general with anything said by moderators to you. My comment was also not a threat, I'm simply being up front that since you linked to other posts of your own that could contain pirated images the moderators now have to review those as well. You yourself asked why those were allowed and others were not. So now we have to review them and see if they should remain or not. It is akin to basically reporting yourself. It would be "inconsistent" if we ignored those posts you linked and didn't review them now that you've brought them to our attention. This is like jaywalking past a cop not paying attention, and then shouting to the cop that you're actually jaywalking. Thus drawing attention to yourself.
This is just an attempt to justify not using spoiler tags when they were warranted. "I wasn't necessarily ruining things per se" is not a valid argument. Especially when other users reported that post in that discussion for spoiling material. We've been clear about when to use spoiler tags. We've been clear about the how's and why's behind posts being reviewed or not. This is the last I have to say on this. You've seemingly chosen to ignore much of what has been told to you. This is going in circles and the matters have been made clear. |
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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At the risk of sounding callous, I'm not sure how that is something I should be responsible for as a user. Also, I'm either not making my point well, or you seemingly refuse to understand it.
I'm running out of ways of saying "if everyone gets away with something all the damn time except the few times they don't then it's not entirely consistent nor fair to expect people to understand when they're doing something wrong." What I'm asking for is consistency, or at least fair treatment (or at the very least a fair tone, god) when handling an issue arising from 1. the rules being flexible due to obvious reasons, 2. them not being applied consistently. Seriously, one is trying to use their best judgement, and it's working amazingly in threads A, B, C and D for weeks, months and years, but suddenly in thread E I get you shouting at me about how I'm doing it all wrong, and editing my post in a way that just makes zero sense for me. As you know I'm not talking about cases where I neglected to put "CHARACTER DIES IN THE END" in spoiler tags (because such cases didn't happen because no matter what you believe I'm not a dick out to ruin people's entertainment), but where I left things untagged that I deemed not spoilery. I had thought this was within the rules because that's pretty much what everyone does all around the forum. How does it make any sense to basically leave it to the individual sensibilities of users, that may vary wildly among individuals and as such among threads, whether rules are applied or not? One's "best judgement" is OK in threads and everyone seems to follow the same principles; but then trying to follow the same principles in another thread with say, a single more sensitive user results in an aggressive mod smackdown. Also, if this is the case why didn't you edit the posts that I'd reported when I enquired about what made them OK but my own not OK? By your logic those posts were also breaking the rules and you just hadn't noticed them. And yet they weren't touched.
My posts ended up being 99% blacked out, including parts talking about the episode only and my opinion about the episode having been fun....
And once again I just kind of point up to all that I'd said before.
I sent PMs (I PM'd the Mod team too previously, over another issue, no reply) but that aside. Do you see how little sense this makes? Or am I being crazy? You tell me I'm doing something wrong, I ask for explanation on what exactly was I doing wrong so I can avoid doing it in the future, and I don't get it - until someone reports another of my posts, and then you're like "you should have known better!"
For the n'th time, it's not like I'm not trying to avoid using spoiler tags. Why the hell would I want to do that? I don't want to spoil people.
Jesus. If anyone is ignoring anything here, it's you doing your damned best to ignore my points. Indeed we're going around in a circle, but it's not because of what you claim. |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
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It seems that a lot of this confusion seems to be around the idea that you don’t know what the rules are, and therefore it’s unfair when they are applied to you. That doesn’t really fly when signing up and posting is an agreement to follow them, but here’s the link anyways animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3083884. I’d note the sections of “Don’t be a jerk” and “moderators have the final say,” because it feels like all you’re doing when told to stop being one is declaring that you don’t consider yourself a jerk so you should be allowed to keep being one. Other people don’t keep having their posts removed or moderated because they usually aren’t being jerks, and when they do they reflect on what got them removed and stop doing it instead of doubling down or doing the same things in other threads as if a new spot means the rules have changed. As for being consistent, I think it’s pretty clear that the mods have been very consistent! You just seem to not grasp that the consistency is that when you break rules they have to do something about it. You refusing to follow rules is sadly consistent. Maybe your belief that you haven’t done anything wrong means you see people actually not doing anything wrong and think they deserve moderation, but that comes down to your misconception and not any kind of inconsistent moderation. The mods are volunteers doing their best, and yeah it is pretty callous to pretend it’s their fault that you keep knowingly breaking rules because you think they might not notice this time. The idea that you have to be punished every time because if you get away with it once means you get carte blanche is logic that doesn’t work for preschoolers so I don’t know why you expect it to work anywhere else. |
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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Sigh... I'm either not getting my point across well, or people are willfully ignoring it. My point is not "I want to post spoilers waah why can't I". For pete's sake. My point is that the definition of what constitutes a "spoiler" is not defined strictly other than "references to source material/etc. that spoil future plot points". There's no clear rules indicating how to handle things like: - referencing source material while talking about scenes that already happened in the adaptation in a way that doesn't allude to future events in the story; - referencing supplementary materials in a way that doesn't allude to future events in the story; - and so on. And in most of the threads I've read, posted in, etc. people - again, this is not just me, but most users! - are freely discussing source material/etc. without any repercussions or clarifications as to how some ways of discussing it is OK and other ways are not OK. Again: not sure whent was the last time you looked, but source materials are being discussed in streaming review threads, etc. I really don't get why it's so difficult to understand that with rules being flexible and moderation being lax ("we don't do anything until it's reported"???) a person looks around, looks at what other users are doing, assumes this is the norm because hey, everyone is doing it and it doesn't seem to go against the rules (because the discussion still doesn't spoil future plot points), and adopts this principle when discussing things in the forum. And things go swimmingly until this person happens to wander into a thread with some users apparently being extremely sensitive about any and all things being potential spoilers, and report their posts, and then the mod is being all "you should have known better" except how? You can twist my words and bring out sophisms all you want, fact is that there's no consistency in moderators' behavior re: discussing source materials or supplementary materials in ways that doesn't spoil future events. And the whole "we'll crack down when it' s reported" principle is frankly ridiculous and ineffective because again, one gets punished for something that has been perfectly OK until then, at the whim of some other user who happens to report that post in particular, among the thousands of posts that do the exact same thing. So tell me, is it OK to, without referring to future plot events, - compare how a scene in an anime played out in the source material? - refer to plot/characterization-irrelevant lines in supplementary materials (so not the source material)? - refer to interviews/official marketing material/etc. regarding characterization or plot elements? - that sort of stuff? Because this kind of thing is happening all the time in the forum untagged, and the rules are not clear on them. Just fyi. And in case they are not OK, please tell me why there was no action taken when I drew your attention to some. |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Some things simply escape our notice, you shouldn't assume that because something wasn't moderated, then it's okay. This does create an inconsistency in the forum, and this inconsistency is very much like the real world. People get away with things all the time because, while their actions may be illegal, they didn't bother anyone enough for the police to be called. I understand that you don't like this, but it's how we run this forum, and it's not going to change.
Here is your strict definition of a spoiler: "a description of an important plot development in a television show, movie, or book which if previously known may reduce surprise or suspense for a first-time viewer or reader." Basically, if you wish to discuss a plot point, and if reading what you wrote would "spoil" that plot point for someone who hasn't seen/read up until that plot point is revealed in the story itself, it's a spoiler. There are abundant guidelines for spoiler use here: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2962859 If you're unsure about whether or not something might be a spoiler, just use a spoiler tag. There's no penalty of overusing spoiler tags (within reason). So obviously the answer to each and every one of these is the same.
The issue isn't "where did the information come from?" Nor is it "what are you doing with the information?" The issue is, "Will learning this information diminish someone else's surprise or suspense?" -t |
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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See, that's exactly what I'd been doing. I was careful to tag whatever I thought could be spoilery. And sure, I'm not perfect, but it was all good - until one day out of the blue I got called a troll, had a mod shouting at me and threatening me with post deletion, and a whole lecture about how I'd been doing it all wrong because literally anything that doesn't come from the anime can be a spoiler, including characters' ages (which is official info but what do I know about spoilers) or a plot/characterization irrelevant joke from the adaptation of the anime, where a character wonders if another character was hit on the head a bit too strong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ No, really. Anyway, thank you - frankly I can't really do anything other than what I'd been doing until now, using my best judgement, and hope that I don't cross ways with anyone hyper sensitive, or if I do, the moderator responding won't approach it with the worst possible faith. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
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Funny how you want to play the martyr and claim the warning came out of the blue, yet in the very post you quoted I clearly mentioned how you had been warned in several other discussions for the exact same thing. Yet here you are continuing to try and act as if it was all out of the blue with no reason for it. You also wanted to continue to argue about what constitutes a spoiler in that same discussion (after other users even pointed it out as well, not just myself), just as you are still doing here after the CEO made the matter clear. You made your point, it's been addressed, and at this point the only one posting in bad faith is you.
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