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Philosophical Underpinnings of 'Only Completed Series'


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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:42 pm Reply with quote
An interesting topic just came to mind that I thought it would be interesting to hear some other peoples' opinions on.

Every once in a while, usually in discussions of the legitimacy of fansubs, you hear people comment about how some American anime fans have developed a "sense of entitlement".

I know two people personally, and I've probably run into a number more online, who are almost proud to tell you that they only buy anime DVDs either as boxsets, or otherwise all at once after all of the individual volumes have been released. It seems to me that this might be an example of that entitlement attitude.

Thoughts anyone? I'll save my own comments for later.
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larinon



Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:51 pm Reply with quote
(Here I'm assuming you are referring to people that wait for discounted boxsets or bundle deals)

I don't know if a sense of entitlement covers everyone who makes such a claim, though certainly that probably covers some of this group.

Still, I think it's a little presumptive to say that people should buy single discs instead of the discounted collections. At the very least, they are spending their money on official, licensed anime. A number of fans just don't have a lot of money to spend on the hobby, but they do have a desire to support the industry. Thus they save their money to spend on discounted boxsets, not caring about the lack of extras or whatever limitation may have been made on these, and instead focus on just enjoying the anime itself. At the very least this group is supporting the industry rather than focusing on fansubs or bootlegs. While it would be nice if people bought more single discs as opposed to waiting for collections, and as a result improving the general "health" of the various companies, I don't think we should look down on them for doing that. Certainly this is an option provided to the fans by the companies themselves, and as long as people have that route available there's no reason to blame them for taking it.

There's also a group of more hardcore fans who have been supporting the industry all along by buying single DVDs. When the companies come out with thinpak collections roughly six months after the final volume is released, and often at less than half the price of buying the discs individually, there can be a sense of betrayal. The idea is: "I spent $25 per disc for a six disc series and now you bring it out a few months later at $70 for the whole thing?" I know that I have fallen into this category a number of times, mainly with ADV's releases, and it does upset me a bit. Still, I'm the type that tends to buy the discs in the series I want right away, so it doesn't seem to have affected me all that much.

Ideally, yes, the industry would probably be more successful if people didn't wait for these discounted collections and such. Then with more profitable series this would then lead to more licenses, more and better extras, and so on. At least we would hope. But this is not an idea we can force on people, we just have to hope they come around to it on their own. I don't feel like I have wasted money on these shows, but it does feel like some people are taking advantage of the system.

There was a time when companies would release a boxset collection that would be very close to the price of buying each single disc. For instance, Pioneer released its original Trigun collection for something like $180 at a time when buying all 8 discs individually would run around $200. Those prices may not be completely accurate, but the point is there was a slight financial advantage to buying the whole series at once, but not so great that it completely undermined the sales of single discs. That seems to be what is happening now and why people are willing to wait. It's a tough line the companies have to walk, between making anime as affordable as possible and still being profitable at the same time.

Just some (long-winded) thoughts, please take with as many grains of salt as necessary.
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hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
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Location: England. Robin is so Cute!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Depends on the series, if it is available in a boxset for less right now I'll buy that. If it is newly coming out and I want it I'll buy the individual releases. But then I live in the UK and there is very little certainty that a series will 1) get a boxset 2) be in stock for very long 3) get re ordered if it all sells out.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:28 pm Reply with quote
For the record, I'm definitely not trying to suggest that you should only buy single-disc releases. I buy both, depending on what's available when something piques my interest.

It just seems to me, at first glance, that people who insist upon _only_ buying anime when they can buy a whole series in one shot are being kind of selfish and have their priorities out of sorts; and I wonder if it's reasonable or not for me to be perceiving those individuals that way.


Last edited by Case on Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scriver058



Joined: 21 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:52 pm Reply with quote
larinon wrote:

There was a time when companies would release a boxset collection that would be very close to the price of buying each single disc. For instance, Pioneer released its original Trigun collection for something like $180 at a time when buying all 8 discs individually would run around $200. Those prices may not be completely accurate, but the point is there was a slight financial advantage to buying the whole series at once, but not so great that it completely undermined the sales of single discs. That seems to be what is happening now and why people are willing to wait. It's a tough line the companies have to walk, between making anime as affordable as possible and still being profitable at the same time.


I remember buying that Trigun boxset for about $180, and then when the show was reissued in those 2 collectors edition metal cases buying it again at about 70-80 bucks a pop.

Anyway, back to the topic, I never really gave it a lot of thought. I normally buy my anime as it comes out disc by disc, the only exceptions being the complete collections I bought of Berserk, Evangelion, part of Rurouni Kenshin, Hellsing and the aforementioned Trigunx2. I think we are all aware that anime doesn't fly off the shelves the way it should, so I can't really fault an anime company for bringing out a reduced price complete collection to try and make a profit, cause if they don't make a decent profit, then they'll likely close, and we don't get anymore official anime along with the nice boxes they go in. Also, don't forget that many single disc releases of multiple episode anime are usually discontinued after a time in favor the complete collections after the series have run their course. But yeah, personally if it's something new that I must have, I will buy it as it comes out, and if it's an older series then most likely it's a complete collection, and i'll spring for that.
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You_Wa_Shock



Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:37 pm Reply with quote
I almost always buy the box set of a show. Since a lot of anime has ongoing stories that continue through many episodes, I think that it's better to buy the box set so you can have the entire story and not just a part of it. That's why I haven't bought Bleach on DVD yet, because Viz is releasing that 4 episodes at a time for $20 a disk. Bleach is a good show, but that's a terrible method of release for a show that's over 100 episodes long. Until Viz releases that show in 13 or 26 episode blocks at a time, I won't be buying it. But yeah, unless there's no box set for a show (like Bandai's release of the original Gundam TV Series), I'll buy the box set.
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La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo



Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:39 pm Reply with quote
I'm currently following 4 single volume series, (Eureka 7, Melancholy of Haru....., Kurau and 009-1) but today I'll speak in defense of box set purchasing.

If we look away from Anime for a moment, we'll see that the rest of the industry has moved away from the single-volume model. A season of [TV-series X] will usually be sold in one thinpak set, two at the most.

Consumers have gotten used to buying instant complete series marathons and this means that the case for single-disc Anime purchasing has to be made. Hell, I love buying a thinpak on friday and finishing it by friday.

The DVD-release of the last season of Lost is likely to sell heaps more than a Haruhi Suzumiya thinpak, meaning the profitability for the latter release is far from guaranteed.

Of course, making this case to a fan that doesn't necessarily have the money to follow four series at once, (like myself) will be rather pointless and I think we should see ourselves as lucky if they don't opt for the dark side of the force (fansubs).

Final thoughts: box-set buyers have made a contribution and for that we should thank them.

Single-volume collectors of Eureka 7 are rewarded with awesome special edition extras every other month, that's incentive enough for me..
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selenta
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Case wrote:
It just seems to me, at first glance, that people who insist upon _only_ buying anime when they can buy a whole series in one shot are being kind of selfish and have their priorities out of sorts; and I wonder if it's reasonable or not for me to be perceiving those individuals that way.


The short answer is that, no, it isn't reasonable. People might wait for any number of reasons, the largest reasons having nothing to do with selfishness. The two largest reasons I hear are a) to save money b) so they don't have to wait.

Saving money is never EVER bad when examined from the consumer's perspective assuming the quality of product is identical. If all they care about is the show itself, there's no difference, so cheaper is better. Yes, as has been mentioned, it is better for the industry if everyone pays more, but there is absolutely nothing wrong on any level with an individual trying to manage their budget as efficiently as possible.

Not wishing to wait to finish a series isn't a bad thing either. Some people and some shows basically have to be watched in chunks for best effect, some people lose interest when they can't follow the story at a reasonable pace (even I can hardly call 20 minutes a week "reasonable" for most shows). The point is, whether or not you personally enjoy following a show one episode a week, many more people do not. If they enjoy if more watching it at their own pace, who are you to blame them?

Either way, they're buying the show. They could support the industry more by buying more expensive releases when given the choice, but that's basically charity no matter how you look at it. You don't look down on someone for not giving money to your particular favorite charity do you?
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:46 pm Reply with quote
I wouldn't say people who buy box sets have a sense of entitlement. I mean I'm one of them usually and I sure don't. it usually boils down to a sense of being broke and having to wait to be able to afford the series lol. I buy singles for certain series but you gotta figure a huge fan base for anime is the younger age group of say 12-18 where majority of the kids are in school (which means no job usually). So not everyone can afford singles.

Now, if you're talking about a sense of entitlement in terms on downloaders and fansub enthusiasts....... I'm not gonna touch that and start WW XIV (or whatever we're up to on this topic Rolling Eyes ).
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drakonslair



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:54 pm Reply with quote
I think that since I am new to anime ( about 3-4 years or so actively watching it ) I have a lot of catching up to do so I spend the majority of the money I use to buy anime on buy old completed series or movies. I do collect some of the new anime but most I will just hold off on as I can probably get more anime per dollar buying older series I want to watch for now. Eventually Ill run out of older stuff I am interested in buying at which point single volumes will become more of an issue.

Extras is really not something that would even enter my head to be honest. I buy anime on dvd for the sake of seeing the anime itself. I dont particularly care if it has artbox or directors commentary etc etc included. Yeah some of that can be really interesting but its not the major selling point for me. Flatpack boxsets are cheap and convenient generally so if its available I will buy those, if not I will just buy the first thing that is including a full set of singles disc releases.

Also as something of an aside I just dont particularly like the idea of buying a series which I dont have all of if you know what I mean. When it arrives its like yaya 4 episodes, watch those.... oh well guess I have to wait X amount of time for the next one to be released and arrive. Im the type who buys a book and will sit down for 8 hours straight and read it till Im finished as I absolutely hate not being able to finish the story. Same applies to watching anime for me so boxsets are generally just a better fit.
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velocet



Joined: 13 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:10 pm Reply with quote
I think it's unfair to brand people who buy boxsets as somehow lesser fans by accusing them of having an entitlement attitude or being selfish, when with the proliferation of not only fansubs but dual audio DVD rips floating around, they could be acquiring the series they want to watch in a much more selfish way, without any effort whatsoever. The fact that they prefer to spend money on DVDs at all is a huge step away from the 'entitlement' attitude.


I actually fall into the category you describe, for a number of reasons.

The first and most important being one that has been mentioned already, I prefer to watch series' as a unit. I get more enjoyment out of watching them that way. The second being cash. I work a minimum wage job, so I don't have as much cash left over after rent and bills are taken care of to spend on myself. I'd like to buy anime, the more affordable it is, the happier I am.

The third reason is very closely related to the second, as like hentai4me, I don't live in North America. Most of the series I'm interested in aren't domestically available, so when I buy things, 99% the time, it's imported. If I'm going to be importing DVDs, therefore paying for international shipping on top of the DVD prices, it makes far more sense to me to order the series at once, than to pay for international shipping for 6+discs one at a time. I used to do it that way, and I realised exactly how much money I was losing in the process. Just so you don't think I'm selfish, as an example, I imported all 20 Cardcaptor Sakura discs that way. One at a time, full price, plus international shipping. Even got slapped with a few random customs charges a few times. I don't regret it, and I don't have any hard feelings for the people who are buying up the sets really cheap now, I'm glad that other people can watch a great series at a bargain price. When I see knockdown prices on series I've bought and enjoyed previously it pleases me because it might encourage people to pick up series they might not have done before.

Thinpacks, boxsets etc. aren't just for those who specifically wait for them as they're more affordable, they also appeal to people who might not have bought the series in the first place. So while it might be frustrating to you, for series that have been available on DVD for a long time like, say Excel Saga or Angelic Layer, people who only thought they were decent are now spending money on something they wouldn't have done before. I have a few sets that I wouldn't have bought as singles, but I did buy the thinpack of. Does that make me selfish? For buying a series at its reduced price when I wouldn't have bought it at all previously?

I realise that I'm on the opposite side of the fence here, but I'm struggling to follow your logic.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:24 pm Reply with quote
I should point out, a lot of people in this thread keep coming back to the concept of "the distributor making money," but that isn't the root of my interest here. I'm trying to get people's perspectives on the legitimacy of that mentality that drives these kinds of buying habits.

selenta wrote:
The short answer is that, no, it isn't reasonable. People might wait for any number of reasons, the largest reasons having nothing to do with selfishness. The two largest reasons I hear are a) to save money b) so they don't have to wait.


Not being able to wait isn't being selfish? I know the "Ask John" articles on Animenation specifically cite that sentiment in particular as being an example of an entitled mentality.

To give a personal example, for the last six months, I have been watching Shakugan no Shana as it comes out on DVD. Precisely because I'm enthusiastic about the series, it doesn't bother me to shell out ten measley extra dollars per disc and to wait a month between releases, as opposed to waiting another year or two for a half-price boxset release. The fact that you're ostensibly interested enough to buy something, yet you'd put it off for years just to save maybe $50, is what tells me that the person's priorities as an anime fan aren't quite right.

I should mention that both of the people I know who buy this way are big fansub "consumers" also. One of them is so shameless in his demandingness, that he even pays $20/month to subscribe to some website where he can download fansubs because "HTTP downloads are so much faster than bittorrent." He, for one, has made it clear that when he wants something, he wants it _now_.

He happens to be a big fan of Bleach, and waiting for a cheap boxset before he buys it (in this case because he's seen nearly all of it already), which leads nicely into the next quote...

You_Wa_Shock wrote:
That's why I haven't bought Bleach on DVD yet, because Viz is releasing that 4 episodes at a time for $20 a disk. Bleach is a good show, but that's a terrible method of release for a show that's over 100 episodes long.


Does anyone have any idea if Bleach is making any money on DVD? It's fanbase seems to be smaller and more dedicated than Naruto's. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if 90% of Bleach fans considered the fansubs enough, and the remaining existing fans and most of the "public" waits for a cheap comprehensive release, effectively killing the franchise in the United States. (Completely speculation; we'll see how it plays out.)

velocet wrote:
The third reason is very closely related to the second, as like hentai4me, I don't live in North America.


I think living in a country where anime is not easily accessible probably excludes you, hentai4me, and mostly anyone else from the group that I'm criticizing here.... I understand that would be sort of like asking American/Canadian anime fans should be importing Japanese DVDs or something like that, which would be pretty ridiculous and definitely isn't something I'm actually suggesting. I guess what I'm really saying is, with the relatively small difference in price that anime fans face at least here in America, versus the amount of time you have to wait for your typical boxset to get released, the only reasons I can see to hold out are that you're either a Scrooge-inspired penny-pincher or you're apathetic and don't really have that much interest in what you're waiting to buy.
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pixiebell



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:43 pm Reply with quote
drakonslair wrote:
I think that since I am new to anime ( about 3-4 years or so actively watching it ) I have a lot of catching up to do so I spend the majority of the money I use to buy anime on buy old completed series or movies.


I also have tons of catching up to do and I would rather get an entire older series I can watch at my own pace rather then starting a new one and having to wait and wait for each disc to be released. I do not limit myself to boxsets but I like having an enitre series in it's own special box simply because I think it looks so much nicer than tons of loose dvds. I was hoping they would release a pretty box for Princess Tutu but I am not patient enough to wait any longer so I will start buying the individual discs as soon as I can scrape together the money. Saving money is always nice but like I said, when I buy box sets it is usually because I like the look of them.
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drakonslair



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:48 pm Reply with quote
I cant imagine people buying shows that size in the first place. For tv ok yeah its fine but 100/200/300+ episodes @ 4 episodes a disk $20 each. It is not something that is easily justified. Particularly when there are many shorter series or movies readily accessible on which money could be spent.

Consider it in this light. Most people have probably watched Friends on tv. How many of those would have actually bought the friends dvds? Now lets put it this way how many would have actuall bought individual disks as opposed to Season box sets of Friends? I am guessing its a fraction of those that actually watched it.

Unfortunately for anime the consumer base is small requiring a higher percentage ofsales to turn a profit for the company. Better they buy boxsets than nothing at all really.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:33 pm Reply with quote
Case wrote:

Not being able to wait isn't being selfish? I know the "Ask John" articles on Animenation specifically cite that sentiment in particular as being an example of an entitled mentality.


Well for starters that's animenation and this is Anime News Network. Second, are you saying those that can't wait for the box sets and buy the single are the ones that are impatient. Or is it the other way around? I still fail to see how either one is a showcase for an entitlement mentality.

Case wrote:

To give a personal example, for the last six months, I have been watching Shakugan no Shana as it comes out on DVD. Precisely because I'm enthusiastic about the series, it doesn't bother me to shell out ten measley extra dollars per disc and to wait a month between releases, as opposed to waiting another year or two for a half-price boxset release. The fact that you're ostensibly interested enough to buy something, yet you'd put it off for years just to save maybe $50, is what tells me that the person's priorities as an anime fan aren't quite right.


Most box set don't take a year or two anymore. generally it's 6 months or less. I also find it very rude for you to insult someone's priorities when it comes to anime simply because they wait for a box set. So if I wait for a box set I'm somehow less of a fan now huh? Well thanks for that ignorant and rude comment. The difference in price can be higher then $50 bucks. I've saved between $75-$100 on certain sets. I also appreciate how by trying to save money I'm less of a fan somehow. Many of us live in this thing called the real world. In this magical land you must pay bills and keep a roof over your head. A hobby, which is what anime is, of any kind should come after all of that. I'm so sorry many of us don't make loads of money to be able to afford every single dvd release of every series we want. Perhaps people wait for box sets to simply save space, ever think of that? Maybe the person with priorities that aren't quite right would be the one judging others by how much they spend. You don't even know how much they spend at a convention or on other anime related merchandise so I'd keep such comments to yourself.

Case wrote:

I should mention that both of the people I know who buy this way are big fansub "consumers" also. One of them is so shameless in his demandingness, that he even pays $20/month to subscribe to some website where he can download fansubs because "HTTP downloads are so much faster than bittorrent." He, for one, has made it clear that when he wants something, he wants it _now_.


Well he's still paying to download so he's not doing anything wrong now is he? As for the fansubbers, that's hardly a fair comparison. Just because someone waits for a bargain in now way means they are some shameless demanding downloader with no morals. Again, please keep such rude comments to yourself.

Case wrote:

I think living in a country where anime is not easily accessible probably excludes you, hentai4me, and mostly anyone else from the group that I'm criticizing here.... I understand that would be sort of like asking American/Canadian anime fans should be importing Japanese DVDs or something like that, which would be pretty ridiculous and definitely isn't something I'm actually suggesting. I guess what I'm really saying is, with the relatively small difference in price that anime fans face at least here in America, versus the amount of time you have to wait for your typical boxset to get released, the only reasons I can see to hold out are that you're either a Scrooge-inspired penny-pincher or you're apathetic and don't really have that much interest in what you're waiting to buy.


I've already answered why people can wait and I will once again say keep rude ignorant comments like this to yourself. Regardless of the monetary difference in price simply waiting for a box set doesn't mean the person is a penny pincher or apathetic. So don't judge a whole group of people based on your own narrow minded views.
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