Forum - View topicNoein V.1 disc scatter?
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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I was just wondering if anyone was having lines go through the movements on the Noein DVD. You know, when eyes blink, or they rapidly move the hands.
Now it is 5 episodes, so thats about 125 minutes. But on the back it says 157 minutes + 25 minutes of extras. I don't know how they are figuring that yet, but if its true that means there is 222 minutes on one disc! Or almost 9 episodes worth. So that is why I ask if anyone else is getting lines. If they aren't I guess my player is getting old, if they are, I am thinking they stuffed to much on one disc. Anyway just asking |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6921 Location: Kazune City |
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Those lines are called "interlacing artifacts," and I've noted them off and on through all the Noein DVDs I've seen so far (1-3). IIRC someone on the AnimeOnDVD forums mentioned them as well, though Chris B. didn't make any note of it in the reviews.
Why are they there? Could be any number of reasons; my first guess is overcompression from putting 5 episodes, 5.1 and 2.0 audio tracks for each language, and substantial live-action extras on each disc. Or maybe just poor authoring, who knows. But hey, getting 24 episodes on 5 cheap DVDs isn't that bad of a deal. I mean, my DVD player is about 4 years old, but it's got component inputs and most things look pretty good. The only other series I can recall with this many interlacing artifacts is Noir, and that's only because I recently re-watched the first six episodes -- I didn't pay as much attention to this sort of thing in the "early days" (2003-2004). |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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"interlacing artifacts" *writes down in DVD video database*
Yeah I think it is a good deal, but I do want quality thats better than you average fansub or bootleg. I played some other discs, and I don't think it is the player. I was disappointed to hear that these have been found on all 3 discs. As all three of them sit on my shelf, and the fourth is in the mail as we speak. I was hopeing it would only be the first disc, since the other two list only 125 minutes on the back, not the ridiculous 222, which should have been two discs. To bad because as I start this series, it looks right up my alley. Bottom line, I did get these for cheap. $32 for the first four volumes in fact. But I didn't go into it expecting anything less than a certain standard of quality. If they are selling it so cheap because they used budget authoring, then I would rather them raise the price a couple dollars. I am collecting Tokko as well, which was pretty cheap, but it was $10 instead of $8. 5 episodes, 5 different sounds, same company, no "artifacts". |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Strange, I just watched mine and didn't notice any artifacts on my copy, nor on volume 2. I'm usually pretty good about noticing such things as well. Of course, I got them in other shows on my old DVD player but never see them on my new one on some shows I know had 'em before. Maybe I'll try it in my old player and see what happens.
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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I don't have the Noein DVDs but after seeing the premiere's on Sci-Fi channel last night, I'm just about to head out and buy them all.
I'm assuming that Zalis' explanation of them being interlacing artifacts is correct. I've seen this on a number of anime DVDs before, mostly very old ones, and mostly by Bandai. A well-known example I can think of is .hack//SIGN, but only DVDs 1-4. I just wanted to clarify that if you see this kind of artifact it has nothing to do with overly extreme compression ratios or the like. It is purely a matter of incorrect DVD authoring, a process which can involve many more factors and settings than just bitrates. It's also in some sense a complete disaster and utter shame when DVDs are incorrectly mastered and have these kinds of issues. The severity and the way they appear can also vary a little depending on what kinds of incorrect mastering methods were used. Since I haven't seen this DVD for myself I dunno which of the "versions" of this problem it is, but that could explain why Keonyn did not see it (or notice it, it's likely he has it too but depending on his setup it could be less apparent). Regarding Chris B. not mentioning it, I'm sorry to say it but to me his reviews on video quality are near-worthless. He does say a lot of good things but he regularly misses things that are so fatal that I don't put a cent of faith in what he says regarding video quality. However, that is just my personal opinion, and it just applies to his observations on video quality, not his ability to review anime in general. To me, interlacing artifacts are probably the 2nd worst kind of artifact that can possibly appear with digital video. The worst kind is when the digital frame rate is set to 30 fps progressive which results in unwatchably choppy video. Fortunately very few things were ever made this way but it has happened before. Actually, a recent example of that I just remembered, is Funimation's Moonphase English version OP sequence (alternate angle). Not the ending sequences. If you watch them, the video animates incorrectly and is totally choppy and completely unwatchable. Compare with the Japanese OP sequence on the same Funimation DVDs. As Dargon sadly noted, in some ways the presence of interlacing artifacts (or 30 fps choppy video) makes these commercial releases worse than the lowest bitrate fansubs or pirate DVDs. It depends on how bad you consider such problems. It's very unfortunate that some DVD authoring studios are so incompetent that they allow such things to occur. In my case, I'm very sad .hack//SIGN was mastered the way it was. Fortunately, hardly anything moves in .hack//SIGN (people just stand around, in which case interlacing problems are less apparent or completely invisible) so such problems are less deadly in my opinion for that show. Oh yeah, I also wanted to comment that interlacing issues can be made much less apparent depending on what kind of a monitor or TV you use. Generally speaking if there are serious interlacing issues on a DVD though they will also be visible on any TV to some extent, more or less. Some people seem unable to see such things, also (even the 30 fps progressive jerky disasters), which befuddles me because to me the problems are so eye-shattering that it is no different than if the screen were to just black out every so often. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 8016 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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All 3 volumes I have look fine to me, I didn't notice anything on my copies. I know sometimes the video is purpously wierd on the series though, llike when the dimensions are shifting or freezing and such though in which cases that's acompanied by the colors changing or inverting to show dimensional instabillity and not really what you're describing. I don't know what to say.
What you're describing sounds like what happens occasionally on my cable box when I'm watching TV which is either the signal itself or maybe a bad cord somewhere on my end, I've never seen it on any DVDs. |
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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This effect is commonly referred to as digital combing and is a byproduct of deinterlacing and having the wrong cadence. The most noticeable DVD for me with this artifact was the Last Exile release. I believe that this might happen more often with anamorphic DVDs for me, but this might be coincidence. Are you using an HD television?
I can reproduce this effect on any DVD by using my external processor and flipping the interlace from 2:2 even and 2:2 odd. When the interlacing gets out of sync I experience this effect. This is the same menu where you can choose a film source, video source, game source, or auto detect. Most televisions and DVD players have an auto detection or only one mode, so it might be that your DVD player/television is misreading the disc. I just popped my Last Exile DVD in and tested it since the last time I watched it was before I bought my VP30, and the video processor seems to have fixed this problem. I originally was using my OPPO when I watched Last Exile which has the Faroudja chipset for deinterlacing which I hear has some minor problems with combing. I believe it has something to do with it's converting to 1080i output which is then converted to 1080p by my television, but don't know the details on it. The ABT add on card for the VP30 is one of the best deinterlacers around and I have not had any combing issues (I own Moonphase, Noein, .Hack and Noir) since buying it. You can check out AVS.com for more details on video processors and video cadence issues. Those guys know much more (many work on the hardware/software for these companies) than I do. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6921 Location: Kazune City |
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Thanks for the expanded explanations, Porcupine and Randall; I knew that the people who know more than me about video issues would have more to say on this. I should mention that I use a Zenith DVD player that I got back in 2003, so the age of my player could be part of the problem.
I think the reason I ascribed the combing to compression/bitrates is because I watched a bootleg version (8-9 episodes per disc) of Noir a few years ago, and noticed the artifacts all over the place. But, I just recently started re-watching it on the ADV DVDs (which have only 3-5 eps per disc), and noticed them again. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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I pretty much agree with all Randall said. The one thing I would add though is that, while it is true that it's possible to reproduce these kinds of interlacing/combing/cadence issues with your own hardware (if set up "incorrectly")...usually when people report problems on DVDs it's because the hardware/cadence was set incorrectly when the DVD was authored, and the combing/interlacing is actually written on the DVD itself, at which point it is semi-impossible to fix. Theoretically it could be possible, but no normal DVD player or consumer equipment (Randall may have equipment a step up) would have the necessary settings to "fix" video that has already been "messed up" and recorded. I've never seen Last Exile so unfortunately I can't comment on how it looks to me.
I bought Noein 1-3 yesterday. Volume 1 was very badly messed up, as reported. I'm not sure I've seen this particular version of interlacing problems before (I've seen like 5 versions or so, not sure what exactly must go wrong to "make" each version since I don't encode videos myself). The interlacing/combing is not too severe in that it only lasts for 1 extra field (some other "versions" are worse and the interlacing/combing can last for 2 fields or even 3 fields each time it occurs). So it goes by quickly. However, it occurs constantly. Each second that goes by the image combs about 3 times or so. In that sense, it's some of the worst interlacing/combing/cadence issues I've ever seen, and it gives me a headache to watch Noein Vol 1. Oh well. I'm using a 540p CRT HDTV to view on, set to a conservative de-interlacing mode (HDTVs and/or DVD players themselves de-interlace and add combing effects on their own)...at the same time forcing my DVD player to output in 480i since it de-interlaces worse than my TV (too aggressive, combs like mad on everything). I am not certain of this since I haven't tried, but given the "type" of interlacing problems Noein Vol 1 has (1 field duration only, but occurs regularly) it *may* be possible to "fix" this problem completely by simply viewing on a plain old CRT interlaced regular SD TV, with a DVD player outputting at plain old 480i. Usually that "method" doesn't "work" but with this type of cadence it might. In any case, Noein Vol 2 is totally different and the problem is totally fixed. Yay. The only gripes you might have now is that Noein Vol 1 and 2+ will be different, that does kinda suck oh well. I haven't had a chance to watch my Vol 3 yet. Stupid similar things happened with .hack//SIGN because Vol 5-6 of those were changed also. Only some episodes combed and some didn't, on both those DVDs. Lol. The authoring studio strangely encoded each episode with different settings. Oh yeah, and regarding fansubs/bootlegs I should have also said that oftentimes I've noticed that fansubs/bootlegs have WORSE issues with combing/interlacing or choppy incorrect frame rate video (30 fps progressive encoding, the worst-case unwatchable disaster) than the commercial releases. It is just that with the fansubs, it's another entirely different organization doing the authoring and it's possible the quality will be better in regards to combing/jerking issues (bitrate will almost always be lower though). Since I never download fansubs and rarely buy bootlegs I don't have a lot of experience though. But the last time I went to an anime convention 3 years ago and I saw the crappy quality fansubs they were showing, about 70% of the ones they showed I could not watch because they were jerking at 30 fps progressive due to incorrect encoding. Maybe the quality is better now. Everytime I complain about this to people who watch fansubs they tell me "it's better now, people don't do that anymore" but everytime I've seen fansubs (at convention, someone else's house, etc) I still see a lot of messed up frame rates and jerking on most of them (not all, some are perfect or near-perfect I think). |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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But, I did pop in V.2(even though I haven't finished V.1, I just did a spot check on so action scenes, didn't check V3.), and the problems seem to be solved. So for me I am glad this only was on V.1 because I would rather it be one disc out of five than all five. But I as you mentioned it rather does induce headaches, so either I am getting to picky for my own good, or I am just getting old(my eyes that is).  Now I just need to get a grip and watch it, from the few Eps I have seen I think I will enjoy this show very much.
I am glad to hear that you thought V.1 was pretty bad, because even on my setup it is very noticeable. And the last thing I wanted to hear is that this is just some minor error and I am bitching about nothing 
Anyway thanks everyone for explaining things for me. It was very interesting. Its a shame something like this had to happen to this show though. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Yeah, it's a shame this kind of stuff happens. Unfortunately it happens on a lot more stuff than I'd like, too. Most stuff isn't this way but it happens often enough that Noein isn't alone out there. I wonder why people don't notice these things. Well, I guess maybe someone noticed cause it did get fixed for Vol 2 and 3, they should have noticed sooner is all.
The one thing you can do which will help at least a little bit is just sit really, really far from your TV. Having to sit super far sucks, but it will help to reduce the visibility of the combing/bouncing and headaches. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Oh no, I just got Noein Vol 4 and it's messed up again, just like Vol 1. Looks like the problems never got noticed after all. Probably US Manga simply contracted a different authoring studio to do Vol 2-3, so by luck the problems aren't there on those.
Not only that, but the audio problems that were present on Vol 1 (which I never mentioned before) are back. If you watch Vol 1 anyone should notice that about 4 or 5 times at random spots on that disc, there is a severe loud pop and/or audio dropout on the English 5.1 surround track (I did not check the other tracks yet). I wasn't sure it was a problem...but the pops weren't there in Vol 2-3...yet in Vol 4 there are sporadic loud audio pops/glitches again. Terrible authoring job. Not sure how this kind of stuff passes here in the USA, really. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Hrm, I finally got around to re-watching this series in Japanese this time (I watched the dub first, usually it is the other way around for me but I like the dub on this). Upon re-watching I realized that Noein Vol. 3 has interlacing artifacts too, I guess I did not notice the first time around for some reason. Maybe I stayed too far from the TV. I'm also not sure but it might be the case that the interlacing artifacts in Noein 3 occur less often than in 1 and 4 (the severity each time it occurs is exactly the same though, i.e. the most minor possible...the problem with the Noein series is that the problem occurs extremely often).
Noein 2 is ultra 100% perfect, no interlacing artifacts ever on the whole disk. In particular, one part of the show where the interlacing artifacts are most noticeable is in the opening Title for each episode. Where it says "Blue Snow" or whatever, depending on the episode. At the bottom are two helical blue lines that move across the screen. They look like they shimmer constantly as they weave and wiggle across the screen in Vol 1, 3, and 4...but in Vol 2 they are perfectly solid and look like someone is drawing them in with a crayon or something. This scene is interesting because it causes Noein to artifact constantly, like every 2nd frame. So even though the artifacts are 1-field tiny glitches, because it is constantly artifacting at all times, those helical blue lines clearly shimmer consistently as they move and it looks like it was on purpose. But it's not supposed to be that way, it is supposed to be like on Noein Vol 2 where they are solid. So that disproves a theory in my mind that the interlacing artifacts occur at regular intervals in some complicated pattern based on incorrect frame-rate encoding settings. It's more likely that the encoding process is fed through some reverse telecine de-interlacer/interlacer piece of hardware like Randall's Oppo....except a bad piece of equipment was used and the de-interlacing algorithm has flaws...which then get permanently transferred to and encoded onto the discs themselves. In the case of the Title screens the de-interlacer gets completely confused and interlaces constantly. Randall, does your Oppo fix the Noein title screens? |
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 7595 Location: Wales |
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There's a sticky thread on the AoD forums regarding video issues in anime. You might find useful information there, or see something you can contribute.
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