Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Seme Like it Hot
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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It was only a matter of time before we got back to yaoi/BL, wasn't it?
I'd have to say, to throw a voice into the pot about why women want to read a story where they themselves are excluded, that I think the very fact that the object of their own oppression (ie, men) being dominated in their fiction is part of the appeal. It isn't just that it's the same oppressive relationship, only without a woman in it, it's the very fact that it's a man being oppressed by another man that is the appeal. Women get to voyeuristically watch the statement, "now let's see how you guys like being treated that way" played out for their own amusement. In a way it's a silly double-standard, yes. I have a friend who claims that discrimination (such as racism, etc.) cannot exist unless the oppressing party is the party in power, but the reality is that "power" is relative. Whites might be the majority in America, but if a white person wandered into the neighborhood of any racial minority, he wouldn't be "in power," he would be in "their world." I think a lot of people like to think about what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, and BL fantasy, maybe more for Japanese women than for westerners, is that "what if" scenario. Not that that explains away the whole appeal, in the least. There are many competing theories as to why women enjoy the genre, any one of which might be just as legitimate as the next. I'd also have to say that I'm not one of those women that hypocritically denies any titillating appeal to yaoi. That's what the genre is for, and to pretend that it is somehow different or "higher" art than, basically, porn, is silly. I think people need to get over their embarrassment about it. It's okay, even "normal," for men to like porn. Let's not cheapen the debate by pushing ourselves into another double-standard about sex. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Was casey arguing rape fantasy in general? Or just homosexual rape fantasy? Cause a large majority of heterosexual rape I've encountered involves that same idea. "Oh you say no now, but I know you really want it."
Which is obviously still rape. |
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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It's still rape when considered as a "real life" scenario, but rape fantasy is not "real life." It's actually seems to be a pretty popular genre of erotica for women, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. It's "rape," but, "not really," because on the one hand if that happened to a real person, it would be a crime, but in the context of the passions in the story, the "victim" falls in love or whatever and doesn't himself or herself regard it as a "crime." It's a fuzzy grey area and people who aren't interested in the genre don't generally understand how anyone could possibly see it as anything other than rape, but the people who do enjoy rape fantasy aren't looking to get actually raped, they just like the fantasy. It's like a kink: turning something scary into something exciting. |
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neocloud9
 Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Now that's very interesting. I think you may have something there. |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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Well, thank you for explaining the whole Visual Kei industry to me Casey! |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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As a straight female, I've never quite understood the appeal of yaoi, particularly when it involves 'men' who look like prepubescent girls. If a woman, as a viewer, is looking for escapism, or even titillation, how is she going to get it from a scenario that completely excludes women and gives her nothing to identify with? How is the thought of a character being attracted to a gender she is not part of working in favor of her fantasy? How is she finding herself attracted to men who are less manly than a crying toddler?
Do rape fantasies play a huge factor in this? I think so. When the scenario includes two men, you have players who are on equal footing, making the entire event focus on power and subjugation. With women, it is less black and white - there is identification with the character, there are gender roles, there is an entirely different image of a male, there is the issue of the woman's response, and many moral and emotional implications that simply leave the room when the woman herself is excluded, allowing for a purer fantasy of control. I honestly can't for the life of me think of another reason to enjoy these stories. |
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cetriya
 Posts: 156 Location: NJ |
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we know that, but do they care to know that? I've heard of other reasons such as tradtion and long hard work hours but I guess they still dont want to except that it might just be themselves
I'm sure a lot of anime/manga is becoming more and more work for hire though |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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I was reading Bamboo's comment about how in a yuri relationship there always seems to be a woman who "wears the pants" and I know that is something that has always confused me in the shonen ai/shojo ai genres. Like in Aoi Hana (which I loved) we have Fumi fall in love with the girl who is very masculine, but if she is a lesbian why does she fall for the girl who is more like a guy than girl, wouldn't that turn her off? Same in BL, why do we have the very girly man if the other man doesn't like woman? It confuses me a bit, although I have zero knowledge if gay relationships are like this in real life so maybe this is normal and I'm just confused.
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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Well, the thing there is that in BL, rarely does a male character actually identify as homosexual (it's becoming more common recently, but still not the norm). It's more often to see a man who is normally attracted to women, just "happen" to fall in love with another man. ...and then rape him. But, oh, it's okay because after much soul searching and remembering how much he actually enjoyed it, the other man realizes he's also in love and they live happily ever after... or something. |
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B-503_MIA
 Posts: 149 Location: Green Bay, WI |
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Yes, but is it rape-rape?? Sorry, but you all knew that one would be coming sooner or later...
Yaoi isn't a genre I follow at all but I have enjoyed all CoA columns & there is always something learned from reading them. Casey's (& Megiddo's) explanation of rape fantasy (hetero or homo) kind of reminds of those Hanzo the Razor live action films. Whenever a female needed "persuading", Hanzo would give her the treatment whether it was welcomed or not (usually involving the cargo net & pulley method). It didn't matter if it was a priestess, a noble's wife, a concubine etc. - they'd protest, scream or try to resist but it was always in vain. By the time he was done with them, all of the women gave up any & all info they knew &, how about that, also ended up falling for him... Did that mean that they secretly wanted it all along? I tend not to think so but the films seemed to imply it. Hanzo's penile conditioning rituals were almost comical & something to behold (if only for WTF-ing). Sorry for going off course but there seemed to be parallels... |
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louieatrest
 Posts: 25 Location: montreal |
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A few years back I read a review of the film "Fight Club". At the time the reviewer was frustrated because people were always saying that the film's success was proof that men like to fight. The reviewer (who happened to be a he pretending to be a she ) said that the only thing the film could possibly prove is that men like to watch other men fight.
I get the feeling Casey is equally frustrated trying to get a similar point across. |
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sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
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Casey, you have my sympathies. You tried.
Those of you who don't get it: BL is a fantasy. It's a romantic fantasy, containing various elements that women love in romance, including the erotic ones. Anyone who knows anything about romance novels knows there isn't just one that's repeated over and over with different names (unless you're Barbara Cartland). There are myriad stories, as many as there are kinds of characters that can be written, and just about as many reasons women (and men) like to read them. What it comes down to is simply that either you want to read these stories and you buy into the fantasy and you get it, or you don't. Readers of it don't need to explain or justify their fantasies to anyone, but everyone keeps feeling the need to theorize about why we like what we do. Frankly, I find it rude and condescending. Those people should justify their own fantasies first. Oh, but *theirs* are probably normal. Right. One other note: Japanese readers of Be-Boy Gold (one of the best-selling BL magazines in Japan) tend to be women from high school through their late twenties. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Overreacting much? People aren't "theorizing" about other people's fantasies in order to feel superior or more normal, but in a genuine interest to understand the psyches of others. |
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branewurms
Posts: 19 |
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I cannot fathom what Casey meant when she kept saying that it wasn't "really" rape, but I am having flashbacks to Whoopi and her "it wasn't rape-rape" flub-up. How is it not "really" rape? Rape is rape. One party says no, the other party does what he/she wants anyway = rape. If Casey was not trying to deny this fact, she needs to be clearer, because as it stands, I'm finding this pretty offensive.
I have nothing against rape fantasies, or rape presented in an erotic manner in BL. I have a non-con fetish myself. But rape is rape is rape, whether the victim gets turned on or not. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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What I get from it is that it's not rape because it doesn't actually deal with true non-consent. The lack of consent is there as a plot device, to provide titillation and to move the plot forward, but there is always a conspicuous implication (or, sometimes, even an explicit statement) of the "victim's" desire of the "aggressor." Basically, both parties are willing, but they also want to include the power play - hence the pretense of non-con. |
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