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So I've been struggling with what makes anime, film, books, etc so good. What makes a really strong "masterwork" and I've been pretty disappointed with what I've come up with. Masterworks in American literature (and possibly in several other countries) are confusing stories usually told via monologue by multiple characters. This method was created by Faulkner and persists in lots of other works to this day along with inspiring things that are heralded such as Toni Morrison's "Beloved."

In film more things are looked at such as cinematography, acting, etc and because there are more components that have to work simultaneously an amazing film doesn't have to deal with a revolutionary new idea or anything, it can be awesome, much like the way fiction can be, by connecting its plot and ideas flawlessly around each and every character and having the characters, their surroundings or the items they use also roped into one or multiple themes or ideas. Or the times and surroundings could be used as illustrations of the themes/ideas the characters expel, think about, etc. In the realm of independent films it feels like people are simply trying to film movies like they would write a book. Not that films aren't supposed to be artistic I just feel that we shouldn't let films become hard to understand complexities. Complexity isn't always a bad thing but I think we can agree that "As I Lay Dying" or "Finnigan's Wake" is over the top. Ironically I think film and other media, to include anime need to become more complex but not to the extent which some things are. There's a fine line between sophisticated and intellectually stimulating complexity and over the top confusing complexity.

I'm sorry, I stopped typing because I thought it was becoming too much of a rant. What do you guys think? The point of all this was to link it to anime and ask the question "Is anime too shallow?" Is there no middle ground between Lain and Naruto? Is Lain really that deep or well done? Is this the reason anime is never really taken seriously?

I'm sorry if this post is way too long and if I'm just over the hill but I didn't know who else to ask. Thank you.

Well, quality of fiction in general, or anime for that matter is all too... wide range in my opinion. If you want to focus on a single anime series, like Lain which you mentioned, I can go on and on about how I loved it, yet didn't really get it, so maybe it was a bit to deep or I'm due to another re-watch.

But generalizing all anime and calling it too shallow isn't something I'd do. Not all anime are the same. Some are actual gems. Others are total crap. Just like books in a book store, or movies. You just have to dig to find them.

Anime is never taken seriously because they're animated shows, and for most of the world that makes it for kids, so people automatically have a lower standard when thinking about it.

To be honest, your question is one that can't be answered objectively. Some people like to say otherwise, but there is no such thing as an objectively great work of fiction. Words like masterpiece, good, bad, garbage, it's all subjective. Even fiction that is considered brilliant by most people still has detractors and vice versa. It doesn't mean the minority's opinion is somehow worse, it isn't. They just don't like it for whatever reason. That's it. There are many different kinds of fiction that are lauded as outstanding. But that doesn't mean you will like all of them. In fact, you may end up finding a work that doesn't get much praise to be superior to one that does get a lot of praise.

The point is, if you honestly think a work is a masterpiece than to you it is a masterpiece. And you'll have to acknowledge that there will be others who won't think so as well people who probably agree with you.

I just don't think there are very many anime titles that ask hard questions, that are well done don't appear as childish. I've never felt that series like that really exist. Lain is heralded as this amazing thing because few understood it and it looks like a likely answer to my question but the average series doesn't do that. In fact only two other titles come to my mind (which I have yet to watch) that try to ask hard questions.

Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" does something that nothing else I've read or seen has done. It sucks you into this world and asks the hard questions. Subsequently so does "The Stranger" and a host of others. I can think of a lot of book titles that do this but anime doesn't come to mind. Is it that animation can't do this? I don't think so but I do feel that anime is created for a different demographic and is conceived in a totally different way than written works are. Whether or not anime is simply created to make money is dependent upon the series but considering a lot of the stuff out there is for kids and numerous titles people hold out as made for adults still feel immature I'm hesitant to say that anime is not taken seriously simply because it's animated. Anyway, just a thought. This may be a little off topic but I'd love to hear if anyone has any anime recommendations that they think are masterworks or ask the hard questions.

Overall, I don't think anime is deep in the same way that books are. Film in general is almost always less deep because of time constraints, but this goes beyond that. I think that anime is meant to be more entertainment than it is intellectually stimulating. This may because as far as I know it grew from manga, which used images to convey the things that couldn't be portrayed with just words. The aim was different than a book's. Another thing to keep in mind is that it costs a lot of money to make a show that lasts even 12 or 13 episodes, so in order for there to be relative success and to at least break even, the show has to appeal to the widest audience possible. There is no similar restriction when writing a book.

Now putting aside what I said above, I do think there are some anime out there that ask some pretty important questions. However, the Japanese seem to be a lot more subtle than westerners are used to, so most stories end up being allegories where the moral isn't always obvious. Allegories inherently force to reader/viewer to draw their own conclusions based on the information given to them, but in a book the writer can carefully choose each word in order to convey the message while animation is constrained because so many things are shown on the screen at once. You can't tell people what they should be focusing on and it is easy to just get wrapped up in the story instead of paying attention to the relative importance of various aspects of the plot and characters. In addition, the story needs to be cut up into 22 minute long sections that need to all have some sort of conclusion, even if it still leads into the next episode.

Another thing to keep in mind, back to allegories again, is that animation is inherently more allegorical than live action film because you are not showing actual things, but you are showing an artists representation of those things so it is once again up to the viewer to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

While I personally do not believe a work of fiction needs to challenge the audience in order to be good (just because it does, doesn't mean it actually does it well) your comments made me think of a show you might like if you haven't seen it yet:

Kino's Journey, I probably wouldn't say it challenges the audience: it's pretty laid back and straightforward, but the stuff that happens in the show is worthy of philosophical discussion. One of the reasons I love it is because it doesn't feel like it's preaching and/or being heavy-headed. It's a show I feel that lets the audience draw their own conclusions on the events but at the same time, it's fairly easy to follow what's going on.

Watch it if you haven't already.

GreatTeacherKen wrote:

While I personally do not believe a work of fiction needs to challenge the audience in order to be good (just because it does, doesn't mean it actually does it well) your comments made me think of a show you might like if you haven't seen it yet:

Kino's Journey, I probably wouldn't say it challenges the audience: it's pretty laid back and straightforward, but the stuff that happens in the show is worthy of philosophical discussion. One of the reasons I love it is because it doesn't feel like it's preaching and/or being heavy-headed. It's a show I feel that lets the audience draw their own conclusions on the events but at the same time, it's fairly easy to follow what's going on.

Watch it if you haven't already.

Yeah, I own it and watched it a couple years back but I have been thinking about re-watching it. Thanks, at least you guys were willing to respond.

Have you seen Revolutionary Girl Utena by chance? This is a series I feel showed just how thoughtful and creative anime could be, and I can't help but feel sad a lot of the newer generation of fans haven't been exposed to it. It's chocked full of repetitive animation, more than likely due to budget constraints and age, but if you can get past all that, it's a fantastic series to play on your mind.

Princess Tutu, as childish as it appears at first, is another I can't help but to love, reminding me a bit of what Utena was. I'm amazed the target audience of that show was children. Either that, or maybe I'm looking into it too much.

Ef ~A Tale Of Mempries~ is a romance anime but some episodes can make you think and it has lots of imagery and metaphoric statements. It's kinda like dealing love relationship with personal challenges and stuff. It really has message/themes that wanted to deliver to the audience and it sometimes leave you thinking because there is deep emotion involve throughout the story..... Plus how they create the artistry is full of symbolic materials.

Over the last half-century or so, there's been philosophy becoming more and more prevalent among US literature professors that something has to be obscurely written to be great, and that any work that is easy to understand and appealing to a large audience is therefore not worthy of consideration, but is simple 'pandering to the masses'. Their logic seems to run something like this: " "Title X" is long, dense, and hard to read, but its author is known as a great writer... "Title Y" is also long, dense, and hard to read, so its author must also be great."

This makes it easy for them to denote new 'masterworks' - they can almost do it by weight, without the bother of having to actually read or think about it. As an added bonus, since the books are less likely to be read by the general public, the intelligentsia can feel superior because they've read it (or pretend to have) and most people haven't.

However, writing a book that's just like some other classic doesn't necessarily create a new classic - more often, it just creates a book that's derivative. The story has to come before the style, it generally doesn't work to force a style upon a story. However, if you point this out to a literature professor, and you will treated like you are telling the Emperor that he has no clothes on. His job depends on people thinking that 'great literature' is dense and complicated, and that he's needed to help people understand it.

The question remains, however, does one define masterpieces? Historically, 'classics' and 'masterpieces' are words used to describe books, plays, etc., that survived through the years because they were both good examples of their genre and because they were popular. It's the things that have been written in the last hundred years that are harder to identify as classics, since we don't know yet what will speak to future readers strongly enough to keep the title at the forefront of discussion. The best indicators seem to be that the work either transcends its genre, or takes a genre in a new direction, both as a natural outcome of the story it is telling, and that it finds a lasting audience.

If you're interested in the concept of Quality, try reading Robert Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (Whimsical title, but a very good book for lots of reasons) and pay attention to the sections where he's using his experience in the classroom as a writing teacher to provide examples, or go to Orson Scott Card's website (author of 'Ender's Game') at www.hatrack.com and read some of his 'writing lessons' columns.

As for 'masterwork' anime, it bears remembering that most anime is written to be strictly entertainment, with no deeper ambition than to sell lots of commercials, dvds, or toys. The fault is not with the medium, but with creators who are merely trying to turn a profit, instead of create Art. There are creators who are digging deeper with every show (Miyazaki, Anno, and Kon come to mind), and they have produced works that may well stand the test of time.

This is actually a big subject you've touched on, and I'm not sure I'm making my points in the best order, since the field is so large. Almost about time to re-read Pirsig again...

I think that what really makes a "masterwork," as Jih2 put it, is that the viewer, via the multiple mediums that we've stated here, needs to think about what they've just read, watched, reviewed, etc. I know it sounds like kind of a "cop-out" answer, but let me explain.

In books, there is a relationship between the author, the text, and the reader. The author writes the text however they want it, and the reader reads it, without having any direct connection to the author at all. The text is what connects the writer and the reader, which is fine, but the readers are supposed to think about the author as well.

Everybody reads a text objectively, but not everyone reads a text subjectively. Certain peoples can extract a deeper meaning from a book than what the masses are conjuring out of it. By subjectively looking at a text that an author wrote, the reader can get a feel for what the author intended to write, which is a direct link between the author and the reader. "But wait," you might ask, "what does this have to do with defining certain pieces of various mediums "masterworks?""

That's a good question. A "masterwork" should be able to make the reader/audience think a slight deep about the author's intention, but not too deep as to have it be lost in the text, and not too shallow as to have staring you right back in the face. You should be able to put some quality time thinking about the subliminal/main themes to the work of art, and still feel as though the answers that you got are proportional to the effort you put in.

That's why I'd say films are a little harder to delare "masterworks," because all of the characters are generally human, and the material has to be presented, executed, and wrapped up in a certain time frame, without losing the original themes. Anime also suffers from this as well. A high-quality episode should be able to stand alone, with maybe a little background information on the characters. If you think about it, an anime season is a collection of a certain number of 23-minute-ish episodes collaborating together to bring you a plot that makes sense, but still has underlying themes to it, that are not evidently apparent in any particular episodes themselves.

People sometimes forget that creating an anime episode is not like writing a book, which is not good. In anime, movies, and TV shows, you have a group of conflicting minds (not necessarily ideas) that are trying to make something presentable by a deadline. Writers work with themselves, and while they set deadlines for themselves, they can take it at a more lesuirely pace, so the overall product comes out better, which is why collective works projects are never as good as they could be, and it makes people less interested in "mass media" projects (movies, anime, etc.), which can, over time, lower the bar.

Wow, this question is tougher than I thought it'd be. I had fun answering it either way, though.

Heh, if we're gonna throw in definitions of masterpieces, I'll throw in an older one:

masterpiece: a person's greatest work of art in their lifespan.

Unless a creator or director has a serious relationship with the work, and a lot of control over it, I can't see it called a masterpiece. From what we can tell, most anime doesn't have this opportunity because of how commerical and market driven it is. Miyazaki is lucky for the control he gets because it seems a lot of directors in anime are left doing stuff they probably aren't that passionate about, but he controls pretty much all of his projects from beginning to end.

I do agree that a masterpiece is definitely something that will make you think about it even when your not reading or watching it. Something that you would want other people to see/read even.

But not just that really. A masterpiece for me has something more even. Something you can't always explain and may just feel. Usually they top at least story, presentation, character development, or a variation of them.

And I do agree that a masterpiece should be able to stand the test of time to an extent also.

While it is a matter of opinion to a certain extent I usually feel that a true masterpiece would excite the same feeling from at least a couple of individuals.

I think that a person can only make a true masterpiece when they wish to create something for more than just money or just for entertainment, which is a huge flaw for me. The best writers/storytellers were almost all passionate about what they were writing/creating and wished to make it for something more than just funds.

littlegreenwolf wrote:

Heh, if we're gonna throw in definitions of masterpieces, I'll throw in an older one:

masterpiece: a person's greatest work of art in their lifespan.

Actually, no.

Historically, a "masterpiece" was a craftsmanship test, a work executed by someone aspiring to be recognized as a craftsmaster by his guild. That is to say, it was the final exam for someone who wanted the guild's approval of his intention to set up an independent shop with himself as master.

Before becoming a master, an aspiring master would have served a term as a "journeyman" -- that is, a fully trained craftsman who had not yet been recognized as a master by the guild. Before journeyman, he would have been an apprentice for a period (in some professions, up to 7 years).

The "masterpiece" was a special and technically demanding work, something that showed that the aspiring master had what it took to be master of his own shop. But in the final analysis, it was no different from, say, a doctoral dissertation. It was a demonstration of craftsmanship.

So, while (strictly speaking) a person only produced one "masterpiece" in their life, it was by no means necessarily the high point of his career. In fact, he might reasonably be expected to improve, once he had his own shop and the chance to shape his own style of crafting.

-- abunai

Jih2 wrote:

So I've been struggling with what makes anime, film, books, etc so good. What makes a really strong "masterwork" and I've been pretty disappointed with what I've come up with. Masterworks in American literature (and possibly in several other countries) are confusing stories usually told via monologue by multiple characters.

I'm sorry, I stopped typing because I thought it was becoming too much of a rant. What do you guys think? The point of all this was to link it to anime and ask the question "Is anime too shallow?" Is there no middle ground between Lain and Naruto? Is Lain really that deep or well done? Is this the reason anime is never really taken seriously?

Well the first question of "what makes anime in it's many forms so good?" I think is relatively easy to answer. There's much more elaborate answers for sure but I think the simplest and easiest answer is the simple fact that they're entertaining. I mean why are you or anyone else watching or reading anime/manga? You're viewing them in their forms to be entertained in some fashion. If you weren't positively entertained you wouldn't watch anime or read manga now would you? Now certainly most anime don't qualify as masterpieces but if you're being entertained does it really matter? I would suggest not getting so hung up on finding "x" amount of masterpieces or whether or not a title is close to being one. I mean if you enjoy the show, regardless of any technical or plot line failings or achievements, then wasn't it still worth it?

As for the question of "is anime too shallow?" I think the answer is yes and no. I mean there's "shallow" or poor attempts in any form of entertainment of any medium. But I would say on a whole anime is not shallow. As I said most aren't masterpieces, and there are some really bad ones, but the majority are in that middle ground. Those titles while not great works of anime art are just simply fun and enjoyable to watch/read for most people. So I wouldn't call that shallow. Average is a better word I think.

Now as to why anime is never taken seriously I would suggest 2 reasons. 1. Because it's not something that is understood here in America. I mean this is not a product we make. This is a foreign product so the majority of people won't know what it is or understand it. It would be the same thing if other countries didn't take a product of ours as serious. They simply wouldn't understand the purpose or significance behind it. 2. No matter how well done a show may be it is still a cartoon. Fans love to debate this point but the simple truth is anime are cartoons. Now, they're more or less cartoons for adults in large, but they are still animated cartoons. So when you combine that with the fact they're a foreign product most people won't give them much of a chance. it would be nice if more people were open minded but that's just how the cookie crumbles.

I would just sit back and watch a show or read a manga and just enjoy yourself. Regardless if people accept it or understand it, or if the title is some masterpiece, if you're enjoying yourself then why worry. That's just how I look at it.

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