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varmintx



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 679
Location: Covington, KY

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:59 pm Reply with quote
How many years has it been since Xenosaga Ep. III came out? I ask because bringing up the removal of the blood from that one scene still elicits blinding, searing rage. I should probably get over it at some point.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Some maintain that we must oppose censorship in all forms, even when it ameliorates things we find repulsive. Well, we also should pick our battles and admit when censorship merits not outrage and boycotts, but rather a shrug, a laugh, and perhaps even our grudging approval.

What if you find the censorship itself the most repulsive? Must be a different "we"/"our" because I never give it any approval or personally favor it. It's terrible that games to this day still suffer from this, but thankfully anime doesn't
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ishmael



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:52 pm Reply with quote
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd how the censorship article mentions that magazines didn't point out most of the censorship, followed by questions asking if players would have raged over Cammy's short if it happened? The advent of the Internet made it so that not only such changes were more likely to be known, but it also provided a platform to complain about those changes.

What I hate about censorship is that it's other people who are deciding what I can see and what I can't. While I might agree with them in some cases, it's the principle - "nipples are bad". I think it's also hypocritical in a society like America, where Miley Cirus can appear buck naked making sweet love :p to that wrecking ball as long as we don't see the "naughty bits", or where Britney Spears can sing and dance suggestively in a schoolgirl uniform, but where seeing naked buttocks or breasts in a non-sexual situation can warrant intervention and outrage. Rolling Eyes
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arch4non



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:07 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, no. All censorship is awful and if you buy a censored game you're supporting those practices. Every copy of Bravely Default sold is message to developers that they can get away with it. You have to vote with your dollar and sometimes that means not playing games you might have otherwise liked.
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king 47



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:10 pm Reply with quote
I don't get it why people are mad at this censorship. I actually don't care and prefer the game like this.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:14 pm Reply with quote
king 47 wrote:
I don't get it why people are mad at this censorship. I actually don't care and prefer the game like this.


Its normal human instinct. When you know you aren't allowed to have something, you'll want it more.
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Mee Deggi The Punisher



Joined: 27 Sep 2011
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:17 pm Reply with quote
I don't get why people are confused that other people don't like censorship.
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brand



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:21 pm Reply with quote
king 47 wrote:
I don't get it why people are mad at this censorship. I actually don't care and prefer the game like this.


Well, in an extreme example, lets go and censor out all the violence in 'A Clockwork Orange.' Alex, the main character, would have no character arc. What would be left would be without meaning.

Now, that is extreme compared to adding some clothes but censorship is one of those slippery slope issues. How much is to much? And can ruin the context of a work. Also, could argue for creator's intent but that would relies on if someone consuming the work cares about that or not.
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GLindis



Joined: 11 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 pm Reply with quote
I posted my thoughts on the whole censoring issue in the other thread, so I won't reiterate too much. I did want to say this, though:

I do agree that we should pick our battles, and I picked that one primarily I think because of the glib nature of the initial article - and also the other posters in the thread - pretty much flat out stating, "this is censored, you shouldn't have a problem with that, and if you do it's only because you're a creep". The complete disregard for people who do oppose censorship for censorship's sake is what really set me off. Suggesting ulterior motives, and ad hominems to make us out to be creepo liars is very untoward, and I'll admit to letting my hurt get the best of me. This article seems to honestly acknowledge the anti-censorship crowd, so props.

I am troubled by journalists who would suggest that certain types of censorship are no biggie, especially when there seems to be a financial motivation (I am inherently distrustful of any video games "journalism" though). Journalists should strive to ensure that expression is not stymied in any way, less it be stymied in every way that doesn't suit the current market aesthetics. Note, however, that I am in no way trying to suggest that this is a point on a slippery slope that will lead to the complete sanitizing of all things s(k)inful in video games. I'm not trying to go for a "first they came for the Socialists" argument. I'm also in no way trying to suggest that better-covered sprites could equate with say the censorship of Huckleberry Finn in terms of seriousness. Just pointing this out.

Art is meant to affect, and it can not do so if it is wrung through the court of public opinion and altered by a small (or large) group of people who are agitated by its statements, no matter how juvenile. The scanty kiddy sprites in Bravely Default gave me an eye roll, and I had no intention of playing the game in the first place. But censoring the game to suit my preferences and others doesn't endear me to it any more, and shouldn't do so for anyone who wasn't interested in the first place. It's almost a marketing ploy: "Here, we changed these things you don't like to suit you - just you. Now give us money". I doubt people fall for that. Do they?

A relevant example would of course be Dragon's Crown. I saw promo art for it, thought it looked gross, and ignored it thereafter. Then I saw all these articles pop up with people demanding it be sanitized for them, and could only face palm. What ever happened to walking away from something that doesn't sit well with you? We are autonomous creatures and need to be in control of our own behavior. Where has that gone? We need more, "I don't like this, it is not for me. I will go elsewhere for entertainment" and less, "I don't like this, it is not for me. Here is how I demand it be changed so that I can approve of it. Until then I will fill the internet with vague allegations that the creators and fans are creepos of one type or another.". I know it's the age of entitlement and instant gratification, but there has to be limits.

As a final aside, one other time I was told to just let censorship go was in the case of the Detective Conan name changes. Those were also stated to have no affect on the story or setting... until entire plots of some of the mysteries had to be changed because various clues involved the kanji used in character names. By the way, why aren't adaptations of anime/manga/games/etc where Japanese person or place names (or any non-white European names) are whitewashed into white American/English names decried as racist? They most certainly are in today's global society and culture. I always wonder why the sensitivity stick is waved in some cases but not others.

PS. Not trying to say any one culture is superior to another. We all have our issues that should be addressed. I have no illusions that I would be any happier under Japanese (or any other) cultural norms.

PSS. Man, I really didn't mean to write this much. I just wanted to say thanks for not suggesting that censorship haters are shady pedo creeps like last time. Sorry about the wall of text eyesore. I'll leave with this: I firmly believe that it's the art (this goes for books, music, everything) that offends us that we need to protect the most. We need to be checked and challenged, all of us. We especially need to allow the things that are weird and different, because at some point we will all find ourselves being weird and different.

Sorry, please return to your regularly scheduled games. I'll probably pick up Lightning Returns, if only to finish the series (but I don't hate Lightning like many fans seem to). I'm really looking forward to Drakengard III, and hope Shin Gundam Musou makes its way Stateside.
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Rahxephon91



Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 1401
Location: Park Forest IL.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 pm Reply with quote
Going to buy Bravley Default and enjoy it!

varmintx wrote:
How many years has it been since Xenosaga Ep. III came out? I ask because bringing up the removal of the blood from that one scene still elicits blinding, searing rage. I should probably get over it at some point.
Yeah that was really bad. Made a lot of those cutscenes very awkward. Namco did it to get a teen rating as if that really would make a difference in sales of the game.

Quote:
How much is not enough. I don't want to play a game, or watch an anime, with sexualized little girls. Too much is not good, and so it too little, we know that much. But this isn't an easy question to answer and it should be different depending on the location and the time.
Yep, these people don't understand that the slippery slop argument goes both ways.

Last edited by Rahxephon91 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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king 47



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:32 pm Reply with quote
brand wrote:
king 47 wrote:
I don't get it why people are mad at this censorship. I actually don't care and prefer the game like this.


Well, in an extreme example, lets go and censor out all the violence in 'A Clockwork Orange.' Alex, the main character, would have no character arc. What would be left would be without meaning.

Now, that is extreme compared to adding some clothes but censorship is one of those slippery slope issues. How much is to much? And can ruin the context of a work. Also, could argue for creator's intent but that would relies on if someone consuming the work cares about that or not.


I don't know the work you're referencing.

That's fine, I would be annoyed by too much censorship. But also, having no censorship would be an issue. How much is not enough. I don't want to play a game, or watch an anime, with sexualized little girls. Too much is not good, and so it too little, we know that much. But this isn't an easy question to answer and it should be different depending on the location and the time.
But my concern is that there are people who are against it just because it exists, and that is just plain stupid. They made the character's barely existing underwear a tad bit less revealing, big effing deal.

RyanSaotome wrote:
Its normal human instinct. When you know you aren't allowed to have something, you'll want it more.


I think that's all there is to it.
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Panoptican
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:34 pm Reply with quote
I think a lot of people that are upset are being way too absolutist. This is some self-censorship by the publisher. They think western video game players are less likely to enjoy a few of the costumes and a few may get upset with the ages. So they make the extremely inconsequential changes to make the game more appealing to the western market. It's as much localization as it is censorship.

And the slippery slope fallacy? Get out of here with that. The article even showed the history of censorship in video games without any evidence of slippery slope happening.

I would be a lot more agreeable to all these people crying out if the game was being changed due to an outside body, like some kind of government agency, forcing them to make changes. But that's not the case.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:36 pm Reply with quote
Panoptican wrote:
I think a lot of people that are upset are being way too absolutist. This is some self-censorship by the publisher. They think western video game players are less likely to enjoy a few of the costumes and a few may get upset with the ages.


The demographic this game is aimed at in the first place wouldn't be offended. Only people who would be offended are the types who'd never buy it in the first place.

This is a game where you rub the screen to get the girls naked... its not exactly going to be played by people who have high moral standards.
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Barbobot



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:46 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
Panoptican wrote:
I think a lot of people that are upset are being way too absolutist. This is some self-censorship by the publisher. They think western video game players are less likely to enjoy a few of the costumes and a few may get upset with the ages.


The demographic this game is aimed at in the first place wouldn't be offended. Only people who would be offended are the types who'd never buy it in the first place.

This is a game where you rub the screen to get the girls naked... its not exactly going to be played by people who have high moral standards.


I assume he's more referring to Bravely Default with the minor, inconsequential changes made there. The one that Square Enix would hope for a broader audience, as opposed to Monster Monpiece which considering it's digital only appears to be going for a more specific demographic.
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belvadeer



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 1909

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:47 pm Reply with quote
varmintx wrote:
How many years has it been since Xenosaga Ep. III came out? I ask because bringing up the removal of the blood from that one scene still elicits blinding, searing rage. I should probably get over it at some point.


You have every right to hate that part (because without the blood, it looks utterly ridiculous and kills the drama of the moment) as well as the removal of blood from spoiler[Allen's face after Kevin beats the crap out of him] and from spoiler[Jin getting impaled by a Gnosis during the end sequences]. The worst part is they forgot to take out the accompanying blood spattering sound effect in the case of the latter, so it looks ridiculous when you can hear a fountain of blood spraying, but don't see it. Honestly, this nation's priorities when it comes to gore and boobies will never make sense.

Word Trademarking: I'll never understand why idiots want to trademark words that don't technically belong to them. This is as bad as that wretched maggot Tim Langdell who trademarked the word "edge" and caused that massive uproar with anything that had the word in it (good thing he was terminated, haha). And if King actually trademarks the word "saga", won't that mean future SaGa localizations are going to be dealing with this moronic company's enormous stupidity?

Rune Factory 4: I feel utterly terrible for my pals in Europe who have likely heard the news. Europe's had a long history of being denied games (not to mention oddities like only getting Episode II of Xenosaga, major what) and I thought by now, they would stop getting shafted. Region locking prevents importing, so what are they supposed to do now?

The Firemen 2: I'm surprised The Cutting Room Floor never got a hold of the first Firemen's prototype by now. In any case, it'll be great to try this one out.

Also Available: The Lightning Returns demo is also on my list.


Last edited by belvadeer on Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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