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INTEREST: Apple Requires Apps to Disclose Odds for Gacha, Loot Box Purchases




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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:29 pm Reply with quote
Most games I play always had known rates anyways (and I'm on Android). It's not like low rates will stop some one from spending a ton if they're so inclined.
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ThatMoonGuy



Joined: 13 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:40 pm Reply with quote
As someone who played a bit of FEH and plays a lot of FGO I gotta say the gacha model is really, really predatory and overall bad for various reasons. The basic premise being that you pay for a chance to try and get something you want, something that may very well be time limited, means that many people won't spend any money since it's an investment with no guarantee of return while those who do spend will spend a lot to try and get something, specially if they don't get what they want quickly and end up falling in the "wasted effort" trap and end up paying more just to get the unit and get a sense that it wasn't all for nothing. Most people however wil luck at the high price you have to pay in order to get some rolls, get scared by it and not pay since they aren't even guarateed to get what they want. I speak only for myself and the few with whom I have talked about such subjects but there are people who would pay for characters in a DLC even if it was kinda expensive but who would not pay for the gacha.
This results in a scenario where you end up with a very small percentage of players paying far more than the majority which in turn leads to the developers to make things to cater to that small elite. I cannot see how this could possibly lead to a healthy experience. It's a fundamentally wrong system from an ethical standpoint. It thrives on compulsion spending and feeds on the most vulnerable.
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Kefkiroth



Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Really hope they implement this in KHUX fast. The countdown to KH3 is ticking, and a lot of people will stop playing once it comes out, so the sooner the game promotes a fairer playing field for F2P and C2P, the better chance players are retained.
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IanC



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
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Location: Essex, England
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Weirdly, I saw a lot of people hating on lootboxes defending these "gacha" games. If you hate one, you should the other. Don't defend it just because "It's Japanese therefore is OK" (seriously)
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Revolutionary



Joined: 27 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm Reply with quote
Kefkiroth wrote:
Really hope they implement this in KHUX fast. The countdown to KH3 is ticking, and a lot of people will stop playing once it comes out, so the sooner the game promotes a fairer playing field for F2P and C2P, the better chance players are retained.


How does this actually make the game "fairer", though? If the pull rates remain the same than nothing changes, you just know that the medal you want is nearly impossible to get... Which is already pretty easy to figure out in any given banner they release.
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switchgear1131



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 217
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:50 pm Reply with quote
IanC wrote:
Weirdly, I saw a lot of people hating on lootboxes defending these "gacha" games. If you hate one, you should the other. Don't defend it just because "It's Japanese therefore is OK" (seriously)


No, if you hate one you don't have to hate another. It has nothing to do with it being Japanese if you read most arguments. lootboxes are not ok because you are paying full retail for a game already. If I buy Battlefront 2 I am already paying 70-90 dollars depending on the country in North America and the came then locks features necessary to play and compete behind a second randomized paywall (or just any paywall. That is hardly the same thing as a gacha game.

Gacha games are always free to play. you can download them and play them without paying a single dollar. Instead the game offers you items in exchange for money which you can choose to buy or not buy to support the creators. Sometimes the highest tier of game events are locked behind needing to "whale" but in most good gacha you can do everything a high paying player can for free (see Fire Emblem Heroes, or Fate Grand Order or Granblue Fantasy) it is just much harder and more time consuming.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:58 pm Reply with quote
switchgear1131 wrote:
No, if you hate one you don't have to hate another. It has nothing to do with it being Japanese if you read most arguments. lootboxes are not ok because you are paying full retail for a game already. If I buy Battlefront 2 I am already paying 70-90 dollars depending on the country in North America and the came then locks features necessary to play and compete behind a second randomized paywall (or just any paywall. That is hardly the same thing as a gacha game.

Gacha games are always free to play. you can download them and play them without paying a single dollar. Instead the game offers you items in exchange for money which you can choose to buy or not buy to support the creators. Sometimes the highest tier of game events are locked behind needing to "whale" but in most good gacha you can do everything a high paying player can for free (see Fire Emblem Heroes, or Fate Grand Order or Granblue Fantasy) it is just much harder and more time consuming.


More or less. I hate gacha games, but at least they don't have a 60 dollar buy-in like AAA games do.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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Location: IL
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:08 pm Reply with quote
For gacha, I always liked the Kancolle model where the random characters being acquired were a result of a battle or series of battles, or by spending resources that are easily gathered. Whereas the money was spent on things that were beneficial but were not required to move forward in the game (like more slots available for constructing/healing a ship.) That seems to be an absolute rarity among the various mobage I've waded into though.

That said, I'm all in favor of this. Sure it likely won't matter to most people, but being open about the odds to obtain something is the least bit of transparency these mobile game developers can manage.
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:26 pm Reply with quote
I'm more interested in the rumored policy changes that keep the 900th knockoff of Clash of Clans from the same company flooding iTunes.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Most games I play always had known rates anyways (and I'm on Android). It's not like low rates will stop some one from spending a ton if they're so inclined.


Nope, but now they'll know if they're going on a wild goose chase or not. If blind boxes and blind bags are any indication, having the odds available to see will actually increase their sales.

ThatMoonGuy wrote:
This results in a scenario where you end up with a very small percentage of players paying far more than the majority which in turn leads to the developers to make things to cater to that small elite. I cannot see how this could possibly lead to a healthy experience. It's a fundamentally wrong system from an ethical standpoint. It thrives on compulsion spending and feeds on the most vulnerable.


The microtransactions model prevalent in freemium gaming already works in this way, in which most of their profits come from the "whales" (large spenders) that rarely make up more than 10% of the people playing the game. (It's slightly different with franchises like Angry Birds, which has a lot of merchandise.) Over half of the people who play the game will never spend anything at all.

Here's the thing though: The developers who make these games are not stupid. They know that any existing group of whales will not last forever, and their best bet going forward is to continue to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. Whales are not the only ones paying for the game, after all. And even the ones who don't pay anything will still contribute to the game's popularity and thus its likelihood to show up on any given person's app store.

Think of it this way: The microtranaction "whale" is derived from the gambling term, a person who spends a lot of money at a casino (this is the same thing as the more familiar "high roller"). However, every successful casino will welcome in any adult who steps in (provided they're not on the blacklist), even if they wind up not gambling at all. They want the foot traffic, and just as every visitor into a casino can potentially spend money on something, everyone who downloads a freemium game can potentially do the same. Catering only to the whales while excluding everyone else is an unsustainable business model, at least without building up some kind of air of elusiveness and high status.

IanC wrote:
Weirdly, I saw a lot of people hating on lootboxes defending these "gacha" games. If you hate one, you should the other. Don't defend it just because "It's Japanese therefore is OK" (seriously)


I am...not surprised in the least that this happens. I really don't like the concept of lootboxes (well, if it provides particular advantages or if it's necessary to complete the game--if it's purely cosmetic and to show off, that's fine with me), and the same goes for gacha.

(Says the person with 13 My Little Pony blind figurines: Ten from the small blind bags and three as Funko Mystery Minis.)

switchgear1131 wrote:
No, if you hate one you don't have to hate another. It has nothing to do with it being Japanese if you read most arguments. lootboxes are not ok because you are paying full retail for a game already. If I buy Battlefront 2 I am already paying 70-90 dollars depending on the country in North America and the came then locks features necessary to play and compete behind a second randomized paywall (or just any paywall. That is hardly the same thing as a gacha game.

Gacha games are always free to play. you can download them and play them without paying a single dollar. Instead the game offers you items in exchange for money which you can choose to buy or not buy to support the creators. Sometimes the highest tier of game events are locked behind needing to "whale" but in most good gacha you can do everything a high paying player can for free (see Fire Emblem Heroes, or Fate Grand Order or Granblue Fantasy) it is just much harder and more time consuming.


What you are disliking is the initial price of the game, and perhaps industry practices between east and west, not the concept of a lootbox versus gacha. A game with lootboxes does not, by definition, have to cost anything. Fallout Shelter is a popular example of a western game with lootboxes that's free-to-play.

Beatdigga wrote:
I'm more interested in the rumored policy changes that keep the 900th knockoff of Clash of Clans from the same company flooding iTunes.


How is that going to be possible? Most of those knockoffs come from China, or some other country with similarly lax regulation and the power to block Google and Apple from interfering.


Last edited by leafy sea dragon on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:08 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
How is that going to be possible? Most of those knockoffs come from China, or some other country with similarly lax regulation and the power to block Google and Apple from interfering.


A lot of the clones are from the same company. That’s what would be barred. You release one game like that, not ten.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Beatdigga wrote:
A lot of the clones are from the same company. That’s what would be barred. You release one game like that, not ten.


Do you mean as in to automatically check a particular company for similarities in their games?

I've read about companies like that though. If they are in such countries, they can easily just create as many companies as is needed to slip around such measures. That's the problem with them, China in particular: There is zero consumer protection, and the government seemingly prefers to keep it that way.
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switchgear1131



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 217
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:40 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
What you are disliking is the initial price of the game, and perhaps industry practices between east and west, not the concept of a lootbox versus gacha. A game with lootboxes does not, by definition, have to cost anything. Fallout Shelter is a popular example of a western game with lootboxes that's free-to-play.


And there is nothing wrong with Fallout Shelter doing so because it is free. This is not an industry practice between East and West problem it is the idea that in both cases there is a pay to win aspect to the system. There is some P2P in gacha games, most try to limit it and allow you to still play the game and do almost everything without it, but it is still there in some form in every game even if it is just being able to do things faster or peat the absolute highest tier of an event easily. In games like Battlefront they combine the retail price payout with the P2P/advantages of a gacha game into a single game. That is the problem they are offering a full game at retail price and then telling you to pay in them multiplayer sections to be able to compete or just enjoy some of its basic features like playing as Darth Vader in a Star Wars game. Lootboxes themselves are not inherently bad, most games do them perfectly okay because they are cosmetic changes like in Overwatch and offer you ways to get lootboxes by playing the game. In Gacha games and other games like Fallout Shelter the additional P2P aspect added to their lootboxes is also okay because they don't charge you for the game and they allow you to play nearly all of it for free. It is when you try to combine retail pricing with the P2P aspects of gacha lootboxes where it becomes a problem. So no, they are not the same thing and they should not have to be hated equally. You sure can hate them equally if you want, but dismissing anyone else that doesn't because "they are the same thing" is not correct.
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