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This Week in Anime - The Fog of War Thickens in Vinland Saga


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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:23 pm Reply with quote
While what you said about Askeladd is true, he does have a spoiler[much darker motive for what he does. In some ways, he is much like Thorfinn. Except much further down that road.]
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FilthyCasual



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:37 pm Reply with quote
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And the sad part is that this both spurned his early progression into manhood and kept him from ever truly maturing.
*spurred
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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:40 pm Reply with quote
I am liking the anime adaptation. It is too bad that the current anime is only slated for two cours because the slow-ish pace will not allow much of the story to be developed. But hopefully more anime seasons of Vinland Saga are made in the near future.
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maximilianjenus



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:59 pm Reply with quote
angelmcazares wrote:
I am liking the anime adaptation. It is too bad that the current anime is only slated for two cours because the slow-ish pace will not allow much of the story to be developed. But hopefully more anime seasons of Vinland Saga are made in the near future.

Yeah, at first I tought it was going to end in it's own version of the eclipse, but judging b ythe pacing, it won't be easy getting there.
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Denys Lalande



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:42 pm Reply with quote
The comments about "women's roles in Viking society" -- yeah: Reading some of the old tales, while the Men are dangerous in their way, the Women are "differently dangerous". Getting one's skull split with an axe is one thing; getting one's skull split with an axe by someone who was *told* to go and split one's skull with an axe is another ("shall I shoot the simple soldier boy who deserts, yet not touch a hair on the head of the one who convinces him to desert?").
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johan.eriksson.9003



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:14 am Reply with quote
Vinland Saga is weird to me because it is one of those stories that I readily acknowledge as masterfully crafted and deeply resonant from beginning to end, and at the same time I can never quite decide if I personally like it.

It is a very Christian story at its core with all the trappings that entails, and that colors its perspective of the society it depics a lot. And it galls me to no end.
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Merida
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:32 pm Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:

It is a very Christian story at its core with all the trappings that entails, and that colors its perspective of the society it depics a lot.


Where is this coming from? Did the mangaka ever mention that he was particularly inspired by Christianity? Sure, this arc features a couple of Christians, but that's about it? I don't remember Thorfinn ever going around spoiler[preaching about Jesus or something...]

The message that spoiler[not murdering people is better than murdering them] certainly ain't something exclusive to Christianity. Or religion in general.
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johan.eriksson.9003



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:06 pm Reply with quote
Merida wrote:

Where is this coming from? Did the mangaka ever mention that he was particularly inspired by Christianity? Sure, this arc features a couple of Christians, but that's about it? I don't remember Thorfinn ever going around spoiler[preaching about Jesus or something...]

The message that spoiler[not murdering people is better than murdering them] certainly ain't something exclusive to Christianity. Or religion in general.


It gets way more blatant later. Suffice to say that for all the praise this series gets for being nuanced about their depiction of viking culture, it still buys way too deeply into the idea of viking society being all about war and murder.
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Scion Drake



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:41 pm Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:
Merida wrote:

Where is this coming from? Did the mangaka ever mention that he was particularly inspired by Christianity? Sure, this arc features a couple of Christians, but that's about it? I don't remember Thorfinn ever going around spoiler[preaching about Jesus or something...]

The message that spoiler[not murdering people is better than murdering them] certainly ain't something exclusive to Christianity. Or religion in general.


It gets way more blatant later. Suffice to say that for all the praise this series gets for being nuanced about their depiction of viking culture, it still buys way too deeply into the idea of viking society being all about war and murder.


Because every warrior culture is like that. They glorify & thrive on violence & Vikings are no different.
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johan.eriksson.9003



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:50 am Reply with quote
Scion Drake wrote:

Because every warrior culture is like that. They glorify & thrive on violence & Vikings are no different.


Yeaaaah no. Violence was certainly part of viking culture but this idea of people being outcasts if they don't like fighting is BS. If the vikings thrived on anything, it was trade.
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Northlander



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:04 am Reply with quote
Also....

Quote:
One of them has bigger hair, so they're different. They're probably both full of fleas though.

Nope. As historical studies always finds way to baffle us, it turns out that vikings were super into cleanliness.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:37 am Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:
Merida wrote:

Where is this coming from? Did the mangaka ever mention that he was particularly inspired by Christianity? Sure, this arc features a couple of Christians, but that's about it? I don't remember Thorfinn ever going around spoiler[preaching about Jesus or something...]

The message that spoiler[not murdering people is better than murdering them] certainly ain't something exclusive to Christianity. Or religion in general.


It gets way more blatant later. Suffice to say that for all the praise this series gets for being nuanced about their depiction of viking culture, it still buys way too deeply into the idea of viking society being all about war and murder.


Vinland Saga is an action set piece, naturally the warrior action is going to play an important role in that. Not to mention that Thorfinn travels with a mercenary band of Vikings. This is not a National Geographic special on Viking society. Lief in this show is an explorer and trader. So with the everyday family life shown in the first episodes and the talk about survival in Greenland and Iceland of the Viking settlers, the show does depict non-warrior life for the Vikings. But whether you are a Viking warrior or a Norman Knight both thought very little of those who were not fighters.

WIth Thorfinn traveling with a mercenary band of Vikings throughout the show, the fighting and posturing are going to be a the forefront.
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johan.eriksson.9003



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:27 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Vinland Saga is an action set piece, naturally the warrior action is going to play an important role in that. Not to mention that Thorfinn travels with a mercenary band of Vikings. This is not a National Geographic special on Viking society. Lief in this show is an explorer and trader. So with the everyday family life shown in the first episodes and the talk about survival in Greenland and Iceland of the Viking settlers, the show does depict non-warrior life for the Vikings. But whether you are a Viking warrior or a Norman Knight both thought very little of those who were not fighters.

WIth Thorfinn traveling with a mercenary band of Vikings throughout the show, the fighting and posturing are going to be a the forefront.


To reiterate: Yeeeah no. The idea that vikings thought less of people who weren't warriors is complete bull. It's one of those images popularized by the Christians who only ever experienced the raids and has wormed it's way into popular consciousness. And it is far from the only one. This goes way beyond just "focusing" on the warrior aspect because as the story goes on spoiler[it keeps insisting that violence was just everywhere in Nordic culture and it repeatedly pits that against Christian values. It even outright alters a few key figures and facts to that end]. It is never super overt, but is is consistent.

And no shit this isn't National Geographic, but that honestly just makes it more annoying. It's a pet-peeve of mine with stories that try to appear realistic or that are based on true history when they perpetuate these false narratives. No one is going to be fooled by characters like Thorkell and think a viking could really cut five men and a ship-mast in half with a single swing, but subtler lies are more likely to be believed.
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:01 pm Reply with quote
Yes, Thorkell is an exaggeration, but so is Thors with his extra large (and wide) oar, or the fact he is strong enough to row with the strength of ten men, and leap from viking long boat to viking long boat like Superman can leap buildings in a single bound. Even Thorfinn's actions could be seen as stretching reality to a degree too. It is just over the top action and fun.

The Vikings to some degree were no different than the rest of Europe. If you weren't a Knight or a Viking warrior, then you had better know your place.

The first and second episode showed what normal life was for Viking society. Which wasn't fighting and killing. It showed merchants sailing for trade and exploration. Kids playing with toy swords, toy spears, and toy shields is not abnormal either. When I was a kid, I played with plastic toy soldiers and made forts/castles out of wooden blocks. Used marbles and small rubber balls as cannon fire or damage substitutes.with my brother.

But the main narrative, is Thorfinn with a mercenary Viking band. If you are in a mercenary band you going to be fighting and killing.
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johan.eriksson.9003



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:37 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Yes, Thorkell is an exaggeration, but so is Thors with his extra large (and wide) oar, or the fact he is strong enough to row with the strength of ten men, and leap from viking long boat to viking long boat like Superman can leap buildings in a single bound. Even Thorfinn's actions could be seen as stretching reality to a degree too. It is just over the top action and fun.

The Vikings to some degree were no different than the rest of Europe. If you weren't a Knight or a Viking warrior, then you had better know your place.

The first and second episode showed what normal life was for Viking society. Which wasn't fighting and killing. It showed merchants sailing for trade and exploration. Kids playing with toy swords, toy spears, and toy shields is not abnormal either. When I was a kid, I played with plastic toy soldiers and made forts/castles out of wooden blocks. Used marbles and small rubber balls as cannon fire or damage substitutes.with my brother.

But the main narrative, is Thorfinn with a mercenary Viking band. If you are in a mercenary band you going to be fighting and killing.


1. I already explained that the over-the-top action doesn't bother me as much as the minor historical revisionism. Not sure why you still felt the need to bring that up.

2. Putting aside how there isn't much evidence of that either, you are backpeddling. The point was that viking culture didn't have any particular disdain for non-warriors, not that warriors weren't seen as a higher caste.

3. And as I have already explained, that does nothing to mitigate the fact that the story keeps telling us that viking-society is inferior to Christian society. Or that all of the positive things vikings did were actually done by proper Christians like Leif.

4. And...again...this goes way beyond just the fact that the story primarily FOCUSES on fighting. It is in all the small details outside of that it does show and how it consistently paints the Christian side of things in a better light.

If you aren't even going to pretend to actually read what I write then I don't know why I should bother.
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