Forum - View topic
NEWS: GKIDS Announces New English Dub Cast for Satoshi Kon's Tokyo Godfathers Film


Goto page 1, 2  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 138
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:17 pm Reply with quote
Aaaahhhh I was so hoping they'd cast an actual trans woman as Hana and I'm so glad they did!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mulletZERO



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:09 pm Reply with quote
Same here. As soon as I saw the headline my first concern was who they cast as Hana and how they were going to deal with her being trans. I rented the movie last week and the subtitles left a really bad taste in my mouth- homophobic slurs, calling Hana a man, etc. I get it's a product of its time, but on the plus side it shows how much we've come in only ~15 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 14511
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:01 pm Reply with quote
MulletZero: Someone on the themanime.org boards tolde the Japanese don't have actual words for homophobic intent, other than maybe intonations. Though I'm not sure if it's entirely true, after hearing 'okama' used in it's 'intended' context. Anyway, that was one of many things which didn't go down well in TG's NY debut, which is why I'm not surprised it didn't nab an Oscar nom. (It was competing against Millennium Actress, Nemo, and the animal abuse-friendly Triplets of Belleville.) Well, anyway, suffice to say, it was Kon's first mainstream attempt, and I consider Paranoia Agent to be the better product.But if you like TG, check out Three Godfathers, which inspired it. Unlike a certain Black Swan director, at least Kon was honest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Akamaru_Inu



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 61
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:16 pm Reply with quote
Ahh, I remember hearing Crispin Freeman say at a con or somewhere that Hana was one of his dream roles so I'm glad he's at least in the dub in some way!! Very cool with the actual casting for Hana though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fathomlessblue



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 173
Location: Manchester, UK
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:58 pm Reply with quote
mulletZERO wrote:
Same here. As soon as I saw the headline my first concern was who they cast as Hana and how they were going to deal with her being trans. I rented the movie last week and the subtitles left a really bad taste in my mouth- homophobic slurs, calling Hana a man, etc. I get it's a product of its time, but on the plus side it shows how much we've come in only ~15 years.


I'll preface this by admitting I'm not trans, so while I'm aware of the problem, naturally the particular sting of those lines won't quite hit me the same way as someone directly affected by them. Just full disclosure up front.

With that said, while I definitely think some of the lines could be altered to be less crude in places, I really hope any existing dub/sub doesn't try to remove them entirely, as by doing so you take away an important part of the cast dynamic. Gin & Hana have a particularly unique relationship, having found themselves in a sort of found family, but one created out of personal suffering and a sense of shame in the choices that have led them to this point, As such, while they are all each other have and do seem to have an unspoken bond, you can also tell they see in each other a reflection of their own failures to be accepted into society (whether their own fault or not), and end up using each other as verbal punching bags to take out their own frustrations. Just as Gin makes some pretty horrific comments in dismissing Hana's identity, she in turn uses every opportunity to highlight his failure to hold together a family. It's a truly maddening mix of toxicity & begrudging love by two fundamentally good people, but whose unresolved issues and circumstances has led them to adopt the harsher and callous exteriors needed to survive in a society that views them as vermin.

It can be difficult and unpleasant to watch them at times, but they're definitely in line with the type of broken, but rarely irredeemable characters that Kon liked to focus on, so I hope that element isn't omitted. Hana's portrayal is definitely awkward and from a time and perspective that didn't quite understand the realities of their subject matter the way many people do today, but I hope the 'warts and all' ugliness of their relationship is retained.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jellybeanbandit



Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 74
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:28 pm Reply with quote
mulletZERO wrote:
Same here. As soon as I saw the headline my first concern was who they cast as Hana and how they were going to deal with her being trans. I rented the movie last week and the subtitles left a really bad taste in my mouth- homophobic slurs, calling Hana a man, etc. I get it's a product of its time, but on the plus side it shows how much we've come in only ~15 years.


Are they censoring the subtitles as well or just the dub?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zawa113
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 7276
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:46 pm Reply with quote
So glad they got a trans actress for Hana! I, myself, am trans (FtM) so this does mean a lot to me.

I don't think the old titles are being censored so much as corrected. The original subtitles added transphobic slurs where none were there to begin with. I'm just hoping they'll be faithful to it, for better or worse, but without feeling a need to add stuff for no reason like that. If they're legit there, that's one thing, and pretending that trans people don't experience it at all is just silly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 3734
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:12 am Reply with quote
The supporting cast looks good, we will see how the main cast goes, but casting unknowns for a film of this breed is disappointing. It's been a number of years since I last saw the film, but wasn't Hana a drag queen not a transexual?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 138
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:57 am Reply with quote
zawa113 wrote:
So glad they got a trans actress for Hana! I, myself, am trans (FtM) so this does mean a lot to me.

I don't think the old titles are being censored so much as corrected. The original subtitles added transphobic slurs where none were there to begin with. I'm just hoping they'll be faithful to it, for better or worse, but without feeling a need to add stuff for no reason like that. If they're legit there, that's one thing, and pretending that trans people don't experience it at all is just silly.


Ironically enough, the one place in the actual text that Hana is misgendered (where she's referred to as 'kuso jiji', literally shitty/smelly old man) is the one that gets changed to something gender neutral. W i l d.

MarshalBanana wrote:
The supporting cast looks good, we will see how the main cast goes, but casting unknowns for a film of this breed is disappointing. It's been a number of years since I last saw the film, but wasn't Hana a drag queen not a transexual?


She's a trans woman who previously worked as a drag queen. In the initial release of the film, the subs mistakenly refer to her with he/him pronouns because... well, it was like 2004 and Let's Not Talk About Early 2000's Media About Trans People In The West.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 14511
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:32 am Reply with quote
Honestly, I think Kon was just clueless about comedy and broad appeal. He was arthouse, after all...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
fathomlessblue



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 173
Location: Manchester, UK
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:05 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
The supporting cast looks good, we will see how the main cast goes, but casting unknowns for a film of this breed is disappointing. It's been a number of years since I last saw the film, but wasn't Hana a drag queen not a transexual?


It's an odd situation, where Hana is definitely supposed to be trans but it quickly becomes apparent that the film doesn't fully understand the distinction, so certainly lines and actions often confuse and undermine previously established information. In regards to societal ignorance, Japan unfortunately has a rep for being behind the west, at least in regards to popular media. It's why many people's perception of homosexuals is still the 'Hard Gay' stereotype, or why trans people still regularly show up in anime and games as muscular predators, who are visually more in common to a drag act. I mean just look at the normally inclusive Persona series for an idea of how ingrained some of these stereotypes are.

I mean there's clearly no malice in Hana's portrayal, but it's definitely from a past era, in addition to her base archetype being comprised of outdated & occasionally problematic stereotypes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FLCLGainax



Joined: 10 May 2010
Posts: 608
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:43 pm Reply with quote
Hopefully the new dub can match the spontaneity of the Japanese performances. Other attempts to dub Kon's films into English have left a mixed impression on me. I recall Paprika's dub felt very flat compared to the Japanese (like the actors were just phoning it in). Perfect Blue's dub only worked because Mima's actress sounded like she was into it. The Manga UK dub of Millennium Actress was very mediocre (though I was impressed they got one person to play all three versions of Chiyoko). I have yet to see the newer American-produced dub of that movie (How does it compare?).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1767
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:26 pm Reply with quote
zawa113 wrote:
So glad they got a trans actress for Hana! I, myself, am trans (FtM) so this does mean a lot to me.

I don't think the old titles are being censored so much as corrected. The original subtitles added transphobic slurs where none were there to begin with. I'm just hoping they'll be faithful to it, for better or worse, but without feeling a need to add stuff for no reason like that. If they're legit there, that's one thing, and pretending that trans people don't experience it at all is just silly.


If there's one thing I've learned, most people claiming censorship don't actually know the language one bit. I have no doubt GKIDS will do better than Sony's rushed slopjob.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:17 pm Reply with quote
yurigasaki wrote:
She's a trans woman who previously worked as a drag queen. In the initial release of the film, the subs mistakenly refer to her with he/him pronouns because... well, it was like 2004 and Let's Not Talk About Early 2000's Media About Trans People In The West.


It would depends entirely on what the original Japanese script used. I haven't seen the movie in ages, but I remember the character was pretty comedic and over the top and the butt of a lot of jokes. Are you sure those were 'mistakes' and not just the original script? I definitely remember they use the okama slur at the very least.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mulletZERO



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:39 am Reply with quote
DavetheUsher wrote:
yurigasaki wrote:
She's a trans woman who previously worked as a drag queen. In the initial release of the film, the subs mistakenly refer to her with he/him pronouns because... well, it was like 2004 and Let's Not Talk About Early 2000's Media About Trans People In The West.


It would depends entirely on what the original Japanese script used. I haven't seen the movie in ages, but I remember the character was pretty comedic and over the top and the butt of a lot of jokes. Are you sure those were 'mistakes' and not just the original script? I definitely remember they use the okama slur at the very least.


They do say 'okama' a lot in the original dialogue but there are better ways to translate it than the f-slur IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group