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REVIEW: Ergo Proxy DVD 3




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daedelus



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 743
Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:11 am Reply with quote
Wow! I just finished watching this volume, and it is another great installment to what I already consider to be one of my favorite animes. Regarding the OP; I believe it could be a contender for OP of the year. It reminds me of a really cool 80's style music video. For several days after I watched vol 2, the song played in my head over and over at work.

Oh, and Key, when I saw the automated city, it reminded me of another work by Ray Bradbury. The short story,"And There Will Come Soft Rains". It was really cool, but kinda eerie at the same time. If you aren't familiar with it, you should look it up. You'll see what I mean.

Great review!
Gotta love that Pino Smile
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Shinkusanagi



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:44 am Reply with quote
Wow this volume is out already? Thanks i have to go find it now.
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Cowboy Cadenza



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Although his story has become quite interesting, Vincent Law just doesn't have the charisma, personality, or sex appeal to carry the plot weight on his own


Well, I'm going to have to disagree with that.

But yes, having Pino around does help. [see my avatar]
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digitalkikka



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Cowboy Cadenza wrote:
Quote:
Although his story has become quite interesting, Vincent Law just doesn't have the charisma, personality, or sex appeal to carry the plot weight on his own


Well, I'm going to have to disagree with that.


Me too. IMO, Vincent is the most interesting character in the show. And when he opens his eyes he's pretty sexy Embarassed .
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Cowboy Cadenza



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:44 pm Reply with quote
digitalkikka wrote:
Cowboy Cadenza wrote:
Quote:
Although his story has become quite interesting, Vincent Law just doesn't have the charisma, personality, or sex appeal to carry the plot weight on his own


Well, I'm going to have to disagree with that.


Me too. IMO, Vincent is the most interesting character in the show. And when he opens his eyes he's pretty sexy Embarassed .


Seriously, when his hair is messed up...mm mm MM MM MMMM.
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Shinkusanagi



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:43 pm Reply with quote
LOL when his hair is straight and neat he looks weird. But when it messed up he looks cooler. Well anyway i bought the dvd. I'm going to check it out before bed.
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Randall Miyashiro



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2451
Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:25 pm Reply with quote
I've been alternating between Ergo Proxy and Noein for my favorite series that is currently being released. I feel so confident about Ergo's quality that I've been showing it to my friends, most of whom do not watch anime. The DTS audio and the 16:9 specs also add a nice wow factor. The Geneon transfer is staggering and is amongst the best non HD transfers I own. The text in the OP is so sharp and readable and is about the same size as the font that I'm using right now on this site.

I'm currently on the last disc of Technolyze which I tried to watch before but couldn't manage to finish. Ergo Proxy is indeed a superior series. It has far more character development than Tech or GITS which seem to fall a tad short in that department. I can't think of a better script or execution for current series and really can't think of anything they could have done to make it better. There might be some minor animation and art issues, but once again I can't think of any tv series that excel beyond Ergo Proxy. Unless the second half of the series goes terribly astray this series is bound to hit my favorites of all time list.
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daedelus



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 743
Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:17 pm Reply with quote
Randall:

It always irks me how I can never seem to be able to articulate how I feel about a certain series like others can. What you said in the previous post is just about exactly how I feel. The only difference is that I've never seen Technolyze. My curiosity is piqued, though so I hope to see that someday.

Noein is definitely one of my favorites also. I don't like to to say that something is "the best" of all. I like to say things are "one of the best".

Wow! I just saw vol 3 of EP last night and I'm already anxious for vol 4 Anime dazed
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:05 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Thus Re-l is back, and who is actually disappointed about that, anyway?


Re-l haters? (That doesn't include me, but just statin' the obvious.) I know that a lot of folks weren't fond of it somewhat bitchy attitude, but eh, she grows on ya.

Quote:
Episode 11, by comparison, quickly turns into nothing more than the symbolic, introspective mind trip episode which seems to have become obligatory in all of the more classy sci-fi series these days, and contrary to the steady plot development so far it merely reiterates and reinforces revelations we've already had. To call it a filler episode would not be a major stretch.


Episode eleven is nothing more than Dai Sato masturbating his own ego. Honestly, even though it's a pretty episode as far as art and animation go, it's incredibly weak and stands at the top of the pile in anime of what truly is pretentiousness along with Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence. I would have appreciated it if we didn't have to deal with this episode, but Dai Sato decided that it was time to cut loose and try to impress the audience with "smart" references and dialogue to the, for all intents and purposes, paper thin plot.

Sadly, the pretentiousness shall see an eventual return, and the overuse of homages (the bookstore in the episode is based on a real one) aren't going away anytime soon. But, for the most part, after this ridiculous episode, Ergo Proxy reaches its peak in actual literary merit with the stretch of episodic stories.

Quote:
Pino offers the float necessary to keep a viewer from drowning in the moroseness of it all, a lesson apparently wisely learned from the overwhelmingly dreary Texhnolyze...


I disagree somewhat here, because one of strengths of Texhnolyze is that it doesn't have to rely on cutesy gimmicks like EP does. The former doesn't follow conventions and just about completely goes against the conventions to tell a dangerous yet moving tale about the different states of humanity from a technological (yet it doesn't focus on it anywhere as much as typical cyberpunk tales), theological (Buddhist symbolism is here in an insane amount), and just straight out emotional viewpoints (it's the only genuinely intelligent anime that springs to mind where I know that people have actually cried at it). In contrast, the latter is more like an amalgamation of different ideas that, in spite of the generic clichés, would've been absolutely excellent were it not for the fact that Dai Sato had to make it seem as though he's an intelligent person with so many obscure references that just serve to stylize the story rather than add substance and weight to it.

That doesn't discount from the obvious fact that Pino is utterly adorable and is probably my favorite characters in the series. She's so kewt~~~!

Quote:
Unfortunately the glimmer of quality control problems first seen in volume 2 becomes a full-blown issue in volume 3, as episode 10 in particular shows a decidedly lower level of consistency and quality in the rendering of characters, especially in scenes involving Re-l.


It's a shame, because I would've thought that manglobe would've cleaned up the DVD releases better. Ah well.

Quote:
And watch the inscriptions on the gravestones carefully for a not-so-hidden homage.


Under it should've read: "Here lies Dai Sato's common sense."

Yeah, if it isn't obvious already, I kind of wish somebody else would've been at the helm for writing EP, since I actually didn't mind the direction.

I do, however, greatly agree on the English dub. Heck, it's one of the best adaptions that I've ever heard, in my not so humble opinion. You seriously rock, Jonathan Klein.

Finally, I would've given this volume a B- since I feel this is the weakest stretch in the series, but whatever.

Randall Miyashiro wrote:
I'm currently on the last disc of Technolyze which I tried to watch before but couldn't manage to finish. Ergo Proxy is indeed a superior series. It has far more character development than Tech or GITS which seem to fall a tad short in that department.


I'm going to have to heartily disagree on that accusation. True, this is coming from someone who is openly bias to Texhnolyze and the Ghost in the Shell franchise (outside of Innocence) and loves both dearly, as well as having seen all of Ergo Proxy, but whereas we have more realistic and unconventional development to the characters in both compared to EP. TEX and GitS do a far more subtle and grander job at having their characters as a whole progress, whereas EP relies on characters primarily going in endless loops (in meaning they don't show any real development until the end).

I'm grateful also to TEX and GitS in that they don't have to drone on and on to get their points across and cite back to dated philosophies so that they can call that "plot progression" like EP does. Their intelligence lies more with showing their story and they build their numerous themes around it, while EP resorts to telling it's point without even bothering to create a truly deep plot that you can bite your teeth into.

Quote:
I can't think of a better script or execution for current series and really can't think of anything they could have done to make it better.


I would mention less pretentiousness and more than a paper thin plot that is forced to stretch out over twenty-three episodes, but then again I've already stated all that...

Oh, and don't confuse me with not liking the series, which I do. Otherwise I wouldn't be collecting the DVDs that come out. It just bothers me that folks think that a rather superficial story like EP is superior to TEX and GitS.
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Randall Miyashiro



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:54 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:

Sadly, the pretentiousness shall see an eventual return, and the overuse of homages (the bookstore in the episode is based on a real one) aren't going away anytime soon. But, for the most part, after this ridiculous episode, Ergo Proxy reaches its peak in actual literary merit with the stretch of episodic stories.
.


I love going to the real City Light bookshop, and thought it was really awesome that one of my favorite used bookshops was featured here! I forgot to mention this in the above post, but this was a big plus for me since there are so many people who I meet who live in San Francisco that don't know about the shop. I always try to go there after eating at the Garlic Grill, or just hanging out in North Beach. As I mentioned before I think that these references are subtle enough, how many of you out there caught the City Lights reference? How many others have read (or even know about) Hugo Gernsback's Ralph 124C? The only in joke that made me wince was Dai Sato's gravestone, but overall I think that most of the references are almost too subtle.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:49 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
I disagree somewhat here, because one of strengths of Texhnolyze is that it doesn't have to rely on cutesy gimmicks like EP does. The former doesn't follow conventions and just about completely goes against the conventions to tell a dangerous yet moving tale about the different states of humanity from a technological (yet it doesn't focus on it anywhere as much as typical cyberpunk tales), theological (Buddhist symbolism is here in an insane amount), and just straight out emotional viewpoints (it's the only genuinely intelligent anime that springs to mind where I know that people have actually cried at it). In contrast, the latter is more like an amalgamation of different ideas that, in spite of the generic clichés, would've been absolutely excellent were it not for the fact that Dai Sato had to make it seem as though he's an intelligent person with so many obscure references that just serve to stylize the story rather than add substance and weight to it.


Honestly, what you're saying here about Dai Sato is partly what I thought about Texhnolyze: Abe was trying so hard to use the series to make various statements and bits of symbolism that he lost sight of actually making an entertaining story. I did finish that one, and was happy when I was done with it because it was just too depressing and downbeat. (Think Arnold Schwarzeneggar's End of Days for a live-action comparison.) Cuteness certainly isn't required, but something in it that showed a spark of life would have been appreciated. The best thing about the series was ADV's alternate dialogue outtakes in the Extras.

And you say people have actually cried at that one? I am enough of a sentimentalist that occasionally an anime can get to me, but I can't see how that one could be so emotionally affecting.

Quote:
That doesn't discount from the obvious fact that Pino is utterly adorable and is probably my favorite characters in the series. She's so kewt~~~!


Oh, yes. Figuring out a legitimate way to work in a character like that was a touch of genius.

Randall: I agree that all the hidden homages are a little too subtle and obscure. I haven't caught a single one you've mentioned so far and I usually consider myself fairly well-read.

EDIT: Typos.


Last edited by Key on Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:34 pm Reply with quote
Randall Miyashiro wrote:
I love going to the real City Light bookshop, and thought it was really awesome that one of my favorite used bookshops was featured here!


Ah, I'm a bit curious on a certain accuracy issue. Is this interior model used in the show a good replica for the actual bookstore itself?

Quote:
How many others have read (or even know about) Hugo Gernsback's Ralph 124C?


Haven't read it, but I'd heard about it, and I even remember chuckling a bit back when watched the series in fansubs at the "real one to foresee one" bit.

Quote:
The only in joke that made me wince was Dai Sato's gravestone, but overall I think that most of the references are almost too subtle.


I wouldn't say subtle (there's going to be a freakin' "Ophelia" homage in volume four) but rather the material that EP references too are just largely obscure. Doesn't amount to any depth (which some people confuse references to a story being deep), but they're fun to catch for those who are familiar with the works.

Key wrote:
Honestly, what you're saying here about Dai Sato is partly what I thought about Texhnolyze: Abe...


Actually the culprit here is Chiaki J. Konaka (behind The Big O, Serial Experiments Lain, Texhnolyze, and various episodes of series such as RahXephon and Princess Tutu), not Yoshitoshi ABe (whose biggest hand in any of the anime that he's worked with is Haibane Renmei). Just nit-picking.

Quote:
was trying so hard to use the series to make various statements and bits of symbolism that he lost sight of actually making an entertaining story.


Meh, "one man's trash is another man's treasure." I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think the kind of appeal that Yasuyuki Ueda and Konaka were going for is one that would sooner pull in a serious fan of David Lynch's films than an anime one. With EP there were a bunch of ideas that threw off the story, and Sato couldn't come to terms with which he wanted to explore (wish that he'd done the latter since a lot of my favorite episodes didn't have hardly anything to do with the themes). With TEX I saw a story being told in conjunction with the insane amount of symbolism thrown in, and I'm an easy one to lap up that kind of stuff.

I'm also beginning to wonder if myself and Kagemusha are the only ones who really love the first few episodes of TEX out of like, eight or nine people, and that's including Ueda and Konaka.

Quote:
I did finish that one, and was happy when I was done with it because it was just too depressing and downbeat.


Hm. I know that most who view the series come out with this thought, but I'll have to say that I do disagree somewhat here. Have you ever checked out the thread that I started a while back, specifically this post for my analysis on the ending? I had a similar view of what you and many others had, but when I realized the Buddhist symbolism, everything began to click for me and I soon realized that spoiler[TEX does indeed have some sort of light at the end of the tunnel.] Give it a read, if you think I'm a bit crazy for saying so.

Quote:
(Think Arnold Schwarzeneggar's End of Days for a live-action comparison.)


I'll do you one better. Heaven & Earth would be a better comparison to draw on, since both it and TEX have Buddhist themes, there are a lot of tragic events in both, spoiler[yet in both endings there is a positive message to be seen.]

Quote:
Cuteness certainly isn't required, but something in it that showed a spark of life would have been appreciated.


The spark of life that you're looking for is a very subtle one, and admittedly easy to miss because of the variety of themes tackled. When I discovered all of what was meant in the final scene, I took it as one of the most simple yet profoundly beautiful messages in anime (similar to what would find in Haibane Renmei, ironically enough). Another person whose website a find a little while ago also shares a similar view on mine. His thoughts on the sixth final volume can be read here (warning: major Texhnolyze ending spoilers). To be exact, the following entry:

Quote:
spoiler[So what do we take from this series?

It is easy to see the tragic nature of the tale being told and find it moving yet also depressing. After all the story is literally about the absolute failiure of humanity to find a way to overcome it's own failings and thrive. But the stories core protagonist, Ichise, does exactly that. He changes from an entirely self absorbed and angry individual into someone who has selflessly tried to save another being's pain, namely Ran whom he wanted to bring to the surface world so that her precognative abilities wouldn't trouble her with such violent premonitions. Even at the end as he realises he has doomed himself while also being unable to help Ran at all he performs one last act of respect and gives Ran a proper burial - so that she might gain rest in the next life. He is a profoundly changed man from grief stricken individualist we saw at the start of the series.]


Quote:
The best thing about the series was ADV's alternate dialogue ottakes in the Extras.


Actually it was Geneon who released the series. They've handled all of the anime that ABe has associated with.

Quote:
And you say people have actually cried at that one? I am enough of a sentimentalist that occasionally an anime can get to me, but I can't see how this one could be so emotionally affecting.


Attachment to the characters and the overall situation, yanno? If you could deeply involved with them and don't think it wrong to cry at fiction, then it's going to happen. That's why Saikano, Now and Then, Here and There, Wolf's Rain, and Grave of the Fireflies are those definitive tear-jerker anime, and outside of NTHT and arguably WR (both of which I'd consider to be similar to TEX with the spoiler[positive message at the end]), I'd say that they're by far more tragic and less, how you say, "rewarding" than TEX.

But I'm soon to digress, and as this is a thread reviewing EP's third volume, I'll end any more talk of it in this post right here. Plus, I myself said a while back that I'm disappointed that EP will constantly be compared to the likes of GitS and TEX, even though all three are leagues apart in what messages they put out.

Quote:
Oh, yes. Figuring out a legitimate way to work in a character like that was a touch of genius.


I think one of the best aspects of Ergo Proxy is Pino, and not just for the general relief in the atmosphere. You'll see what I mean as you watch the series more, but her importance answers a plot point that a lot of people didn't think was answered by the end of the EP.

That is one major positive to note, is that even if the development is awkward at times, we see the three main protagonists change (Vincent, Re-l, and Pino), and it's their journey that does make EP worth it.
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Trivial



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Location: Ottawa, ON
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:06 pm Reply with quote
I am huge huge fan of cyberpunk and dark, but not unbearably depressing anime. I thouroughly enjoyed EP it made my week, which is getting better while watching Monster.

I enjoyed the ego trip and obscure references, as they made for entertaining filler episodes. On a stand alone basis they were well done and added some diversity to the story telling.

I like creators who put a lot of background research into their stories, as it demonstrates pride in their work and makes the story that much more interesting.

I'd be lying if I said I got a complete grasp of all the themes that were explored, which is a central reason why I look forward to watching the series again.

Technolyze if the first episode is any indication will be tough to finish. I can see that it is well done, but wow is it slow and depressing. I still plan on finishing it but I doubt I'd like it nearly as much as EP and GITS.
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JKNGP
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Joined: 17 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
The best thing about the series was ADV's alternate dialogue ottakes in the Extras.


HellKorn wrote:
Actually it was Geneon who released the series. They've handled all of the anime that ABe has associated with.


True, but the alternate takes were all my idea. Geneon just released them on the DVD. Smile

Regards,

JK
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:32 pm Reply with quote
JKNGP wrote:
True, but the alternate takes were all my idea. Geneon just released them on the DVD. Smile

Regards,

JK


Ah, hey, Mr. Klein. Glad to see ya still posting on these forums even after Steroid's shenanigans a while back.

I'm curious. If you are able to tell us, do you have any plans to do any future English dub outtakes with a New Generation Pictures cast? (Apparently not with Ergo Proxy, though I could imagine a few scenes that could be taken out of context.) Texhnolyze is the only Geneon property that I know which has that extra feature, and outside of titles licensed by Media Blasters, I don't know of any companies that frequently includes it.
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