Forum - View topicDoes eliminating honorifics hurt the story?
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wanderer
 Posts: 77 |
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It seems like Tokyopop and perhaps Viz are the biggest culprits, but I find a lot of the manga I've read have the honorifics edited out. I realize this is done to make the book more appealing and less foreign to American consumers, but at the same time they put such an emphasis on releasing 'authentic' manga. I would think that reading a book 'backwards' would be just as foreign.
From reading around it seems a lot of you have read the Japanese versions first so I was curious if the lack of honorifics and other Japanese references are taking away from the stories we're getting. Some companies include these elements and include glossaries for those who don't know. I greatly prefer it this way but I was never really upset that they were left out until I read Kizuna. I don't speak or read Japanese but this is one of the only manga I've read scanlations of. I got used to the honorifics and didn't realize how important they were to the story until I read the second volume in english. Because aquaintances refer to each other by family name there was a story about how the main character kept pressuring the other main character to find out his given name until he blurts it out in embarassment, and they look at him in shock, because its a feminine name. It was cute in the scanlations but it made no sense in the 'official' version since they were calling him by his 'first' name all along. I felt cheated because the cover price of this book is $16. For that much I think the least they could do is give an accurate translation of the story. Because a lot of Americans and manga fans don't read the Japanese original I was curious if things like this happen frequently and if anyone else is bothered by it. Obviously translations are vital to market manga to Americans but I think its shameful when the charm and meaning of manga is taken away just so someone can make a buck. Why do they even feel this is necessary? Honorifics and a great deal of japanese history and terminoligy is included in the english release of Kenshin and isn't that one of the best selling manga in America? |
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ames_909
 Posts: 37 Location: Canada |
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I don't really think it's all that hard to learn a few extra words in order to understand a series more fully. Honestly, in my opinion, I think the honorifics are an important part of the story in any manga. By using different honorifics for certain people, it allows us to see the subtle relationships between characters.
For example, if someone uses "-sama" to address a certain person, you know it's a) someone they either greatly respect, b) it is a person of great importance, or something along those lines. Another example would be the use of sempai/senpai in series with a school setting. Also, some characters may pointedly ignore honorifics to show derision or to mock another character... but if all the honorifics are taken out, you (as the reader) will have no idea about this subtle insult, or even be aware that anything is different. All in all, I really think it's a bad idea to take out honorifics. ^-^ |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Well, first off you single out T-pop and Viz as big culprits. With T-pop, it's selective. For stories that are very very Japanese oriented, they leave them in (Ai Yori Aoshi is an excellent example of this) whereas if it's not quite so crucial to the story (Initial D for instance) they leave it out.
Comparing one Viz title to another is a bit ludicrous, too. Yes, Angel Sanctuary has a much better translation and retains more of its Japanese-ness than, say, Fushigi Yugi. However, Fushigi Yugi was also released way back in the dark ages of anime/manga in the US. Heck, it was originally released flipped (and I think with Americanized sound effects). Comparing Viz's older titles with the latest, even from the same company, is unfair. Different times, different standards. Honorifics are really a small gripe. Do they add to some stories? Yes they do. However, I'd honestly be driven up the wall if they had to reduce the size of the print and increase the price of the manga because they had to include every san, kun, chan, and sama in the story just because some folks can't derive from context that one character respects another. |
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SnowStar_7*
 Posts: 87 |
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I do not understand what you are exactly saying about Tokyopop. I mean they really pride themselves in bringing out their manga in right to left format, original sound effects, and with honorifics.
I personally believe that the honorifcs should be maintained. The whay the characters refer to one another let's you better understand how the relationships between them are. In the Fruits Basket English dub. Thoru calls Yuki Sohma 'Yuki' while in the sub he calls him 'Sohma kun'. The fact that she refers to him by his family name shows the respect (best word I could think of) she has for him and the honorific adds to it too. It also caused changes to the episode where Yuki is sick and Hatsuharu tells thoru to call Yuki 'Yuki kun' instead of 'Sohma kun', and since in the English dub she already calls him Yuki they had her call him by his fangirl nickname... Prince Yuki. But, of course it would sound rediculous in English dubbed Anime to add honorifics, but I'm just trying to prove my point on how if it was written out like it is said in the English dub anime it would have a distinct feel from what it truly is meant to be. Ah, I focused more on the family name and given name here (I gave a not so good example), but overall I love honorifics! 
Last edited by SnowStar_7* on Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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I really don't think honorifics are that big of an issue. Yea, they do show character's relationships, but that should be apparent from the way they act, and the honorifics are required that's a sign of poor writing. So I don't really care if they are added or not; what's really important is the translation, as the two languages are so diffrent that sometimes the meaning is lost when they translate a manga.
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Nani?
 Posts: 632 |
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Personally, I like honorifics. However, I fully realise that it might be the elitist snob in me. Trying to put that aside,
Whether they honestly add something, I think it depends on the series. In Blade of the Immortal for example, I think the honorifics add to the sense of time and place. I don't think that's true of a series like GTO or even Alice 19th. In fact, Onizuka-Sama seems ridiculous except in a very ironic way. There are also characters who, it just seems right that they use honorifics, adding to the characterization. Aoi from Aoi Yori Yoshi, Makoto or Shinobu from Love Hina, Hinoto, Arashi or Aoki from X or come to mind. Looking at that list I notice a tendancy for them to be female and assosiated with traditional Japanese culture, go figure. With that in mind, if you want to go out on a limb, perhaps it would add something to a character like Melissa from Rune Solider. All the Best, Nani?[/i] |
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wanderer
Posts: 77 |
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I shouldn't have even mentioned Tokyopop or Viz in my original post because I'm talking about manga in general not just those released by those two companies. I haven't read every release of Viz's or Tokyopop's so I was only referring to those in my collection as far as the honorifics being left out. I worded that badly and certainly didn't mean to single them out
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As I said, it never really bothered me that honorifics were left out until I came across a manga where is seems someone had gone out of their way to avoid including them to the point where a section of the story made no sense. The removal of honorifics altered the translation (however slightly) and thats what irritated me. The characters in this story are two lovers; Samejima Ranmaru and Enjouji Kei. In the original, Ranmaru addresses his lover by his family name, Enjouji, but Enjouji addresses Ranmaru as Ran-chan. In the translated version they're Kei and Ranmaru. It's obvious by reading the manga that there is a respect between the two and I can still enjoy the book. But in the original you can tell right away there's a difference in the respect, or affection, rather, that the characters are willing to show one another which sheds insight on their relationship. In English that definition isnt there. I suppose it is a small complaint in the grand scheme of things but I don't think that makes it any less important a topic to bring up. I think the nuances that honorifics can add to a story, character, and relationships can often be crucial even if it seems small. Especially since the way americans show respect to one another can sometimes be so different from how the japanese do. I also think that if the original author felt the need to include honorifics, then that makes them crucial to the story. I can respect that people value translation quality over 'little' things such as honorifics. But aren't honorifics a part of the translation? I can never really say if one manga is heavily edited, or comment on the accuracy of the translations because I wouldn't know what was changed if I'd never read the original. |
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aoie_emesai
 Posts: 52 Location: Necessary? |
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It depends like "Wanderer" said depending on the enivorment, it can or couldn't be left out. Example School Enivorment, Year 4000, big fat gundam, i doubt you'll do honorific in your mecha, "ohhh Kira San, please dont shoot me" hah haha
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Diedrupo
Posts: 58 |
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I hate honorifics being used in ENGLISH manga, because honorifics are not english words and they are not english grammar.
While honorifics in most cases have no english equivalent, that does not mean the translator has to be lazy and port them over. Every time I see a "Name-sama!" I cringe at the sight of seeing this disgusting blend of english and japanese. It's the same as seeing translators leave words like baka, kawaii, yaoi, etc. untranslated. We are speaking english here, folks, not some bastardized 99% english 1% japanese fandom crap. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I think they could be a major part of the story in saying something about a person's behavoir and how they see other people.
Example: Matantei Loki Loki is a god in disguise who likes to tease people to no end, and have his own personal jokes. For an annoying girl named Daidouji Mayura, he calls her just plain "Mayura", purposely using her first name, and leaving off any honorifics, which confuses her as well as annoys her at first. It's a rather rude move to start out with with someone you haven't met before. For a detective he loves to annoy, he adds "chan" to his name, and this really gets a reaction from the detective. Heck, he gets a lot of reactions out of characters from the way he uses honorifics. ADV has already annoyed me by how they're treating honorifics in titles I've read before they aquired them. If I didn't know what they were like before, I probably wouldn't be as annoyed. Call me an Elitist if you want, but I just want an accurate translation with as little left out as possible. And to those who say it's not possible to turn honorifics into English, I disagree. For "sama" you just add master to the front of a name, and it does well. For "san" Mr. or Ms. "Chan" is the only one I think there's a problem with. I'd be happier with these English honorifics instead of none at all. Honorifics are part of Japanese culture, and these are Japanese comics. To not have the honorifics adds to what's lost of the story in the translation. |
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Arachne
 Posts: 35 Location: Charlotte |
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I think you can see the importance of honorifics when you compare X/1999 to Tokyo Babylon. In Viz's defense, X did come out forever ago, but I think the honorifics should have been added in the second edition.
When reading Tokyo Babylon, the honorifics help describe the relationship between Subaru and Seishiro. That's missing from the English translation of X. And the translation is weaker for not having it there. ~Arachne~ |
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Kagemusha
Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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The problem is if they are translated into english it sounds really awkward. Your right that it is possible, but it's still not going to be a very good adaptation. Can you imagine characters refering to one another only as "Mr." or Mrs."? Accurate to the Japanese language? Perhapse. Good adaptation? Not really. The Japanese and English languages are diffrent enough that some of their customs aren't going to equal our customs. To want them to keep the honorifics, even if they're translated, simply for the sake of being accurate to the original would take away from the dialouge and end up hurting the story. Either keep them in Japanese or don't include them at all.
Blade of the Immortal is a bit diffrent. Honorifics are rarely used, except for a coulple of characters. In those cases, I agree that they are well used, such as Manji calling Sori sensei (which shows how good Sori actually is) or Anotsu refering to Ibane with -dono attached to show that they really aren't close friends yet, and are still being very formal with eachother. Most characters don't use them at all to keep the edgy feel of their personalities and the modern sensibility. Even these really are not nessisary, as the way the characters talk to each other is enough to understand the relationships between them, as I think it is for most mangas (when properly translated anyway). In any case, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Not including them isn't dishonoring Japanese cuture, and including them isn't ruining your reading experence. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Kagemusha
Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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Some jokes and elements of the story may lose meaning (which can be offset by good writing and/or sidenotes), but I would rather have a good interpritation of the manga. Translating the Japanese language literally isn't a very good idea. Can you imagine a teen drama where everyone refered to eachother as "Mrs." or "Sir"? It would proboly have a negative effect on the story. Compared with losing some jokes/elements in which honorifics would be nessisary, I would place the overall quality of the interpritation as priority because that's what is going to affect the reader's enjoyment. |
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BoygetsfireD
 Posts: 475 Location: earth |
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what are honorifics?
from reading the thread, I've picked up that they're like japanese sayings/expressions, but I'm not too sure |
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