Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Ggultra2764
 Posts: 4051 Location: New York state. |
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Considering I nominated them to win Group B in my mini-game... *raises hand* 
I might not be a big Code Geass fan, but the rivalry sticks out enough for the series and has its merits, even if a bit overblown by the show's melodramatics. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 19132 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5: Groups C and D Finals is now closed.
Results can be found here. At least one of these should be much closer than the blow-outs on the top side of the alphabet. The Group C Final is, I think, the biggest match of the tournament to date, while the Group D Final provides yet another test for the surging Go duo. Who will represent their Groups in the Final Four? And who is responsible for the travesty of scheduling which allows one of the Group C participants to get knocked out while Lelouch/Suzaku advanced? (Oh, wait. . .) Group C Final Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Group D Final Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go Last edited by Key on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 19132 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Group C Final
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk A more diametric contrast between two rivalries could not be found in this tournament if I had specifically arranged it. (And really, I hadn't even considered the possibilities of this match-up when I did the shuffle of seeded rivalries.) On the one side we have the tournament's most elegant and beautiful rivalry, while on the other we have the tournament's ugliest and most brutal rivalry. The clip for the Princesses is a powerful one (one of anime's truly great scenes, in fact) and certainly shows why that duo well-deserved to get this far and typically in an utterly dominant fashion. Here, though, Tutu and Krahe have met their match. While not quite as overwhelming, the Basilisk clip nonetheless illustrates quite well why Kouga vs. Iga is a top contender. No rivalry in this tournament is deeper or has a more rock-solid foundation; not even peace entreaties by one of the side's leaders can calm the thirst for blood and not even love can stand in the way. Tutu and Krahe have great drama in their conflict, but their rivalry is shallow by comparison and one sometimes gets the sense that Duck sees Krahe more as a friend to be saved than as a true rival. Also, while Princess Tutu is unquestionably stronger and more entertaining for the rivalry of the Princesses, the series could survive without it. In Basilisk's case, the rivalry is the series. Group D Final Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go This vote shouldn't surprise or disappoint anyone. I've made it no secret that I don't believe that Hikaru vs. Akira should have advanced this far and, unlike with Lelouch/Suzaku in Group B, they're still running up against what I consider to be worthy opponents. Yuki vs. Kyo may (will probably?) lose overall, but I still find their squabbling quite a bit more entertaining and plenty well deep-rooted enough to be worthy of advancing this far. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7391 |
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Group C Final
Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Hmm, this is a tough choice. I certainly like Princess Tutu more as a series, but....well ultimately, Basilisk is a series entirely about the rivalry. Princess Tutu really isn't. I've always seen Princess Tutu as a series bout fighting fate and dark fairy tales. Basilisk is about two sides hunting each other down and killing each other one by one. That's literally the story, it's like how Katamari Damacy's story is just an excuse to roll stuff up, Basilisk's is an excuse to let all the fighting fish into the tank. Nothing wrong with doing that for the story as it's damn entertaining and a great rivalry is shown through it. And Basilisk is easily the best team based rivalry in this entire series. Group D Final Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go This should come as no surprise, they're still the strongest if you ask me. Now, I will admit, I might have a slight problem with both series, namely, I have not seen the anime for either but have read the manga. So I'm going entirely based on the manga on both accounts (though Hikago does adapt more of its respective series). If I were to go Kyo vs Yuki based solely on the manga, which I really don't have much of a choice here, their rivalry falls apart pretty quickly once the series turns darker. spoiler[It's incredibly clear that Kyo is winning the romantic rivalry and Yuki is ok with that because he really only viewed Tohru as a mother figure. Once this is obvious, the student council is clearly set up to give Yuki a consolation prize, but he wasn't in any sort of romantic running for a long time] so in the romantic aspect, it more or less falls apart pretty easily. On a fighting aspect they hate each other more, but spoiler[Kyo is fighting Yuki to attempt to get into Akito's good graces, but since Yuki has a different bond to Akito, one that makes him serve Akito absolutely, the real objective of keeping Kyo out is so that the other 12 members can go "well at least I'm not the Cat/Kyo".] So as far as I know, it didn't entirely just form on rat vs cat thing, but as a way of pity and a way of control. And by the end of the manga spoiler[they're pretty well friends, or maybe not friends, but they don't really fight anymore ever long before the series ends]. I know it might not be entirely fair for me to go on the manga here, since I was informed that the anime ends around vol 8 when the rivalry was still stronger, but the anime is just not the story I know here, I don't have much of a choice. To be fair, I'm going based on the manga for Hikago too (and they're both 23 volumes, ironically enough) so at least I'm being equal. But while Hikaru and Akira's rivalry lasts pretty much the entire manga and gets ever stronger, Kyo and Yuki's breaks apart, pretty early on at that. Even with all the clips, which were in the manga, I just know where it'll go from the end of the series regardless, I can't erase my memory on this (hmm, I might want to just to relive reading Furuba for the first time, it was a great manga), and they hardly have a rivalry at all by the end of it. A great series, yes, just not a great rivalry. It might not be fair of me to go based on the manga, but I wouldn't say that I'm not familiar with the series as a result (I'm very familiar with both series in fact), and I don't really seem to be having any trouble keeping up with events from either series either. Ok, so for non-manga basis, much like Basilisk vs the Princesses, the rivalry wasn't really ever the main focus of Fruits Basket while it played a much more major part in Hikago to practically being the entire series (much like Basilisk). So Hikaru and Akira's rivalry was far more important to the series itself while for Kyo and Yuki, it was really only ever more of a side thing to begin with (and a way for them to accidentally hug Tohru and turn into animals). I just don't think that Yuki and Kyo's rivalry means as much to the series and while it certainly means a lot to the characters, I think it means just as much if not more to Hikaru and Akira as they start to base their entire lives around this. So even if I can only use the first 8 or so volume of Furuba, I still think Hikago is a stronger rivalry anyway and have made plenty of arguments in past rounds as is. Last edited by zawa113 on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Under the current circumstances, I do believe Lelouch vs. Suzaku deserved to come out on top of Group B. In fact, I'd even see it happening if they had faced their other potential opponent. But if you ask me which rivalries should have ideally made it to the Final Four, in purely abstract terms without considering the specific brackets, then I would have probably assumed otherwise myself. In practice, however, such ideal scenarios are rare and I don't think it's actually possible to come up with perfect scheduling on a consistent basis...because, after all, each of us has a different set of ideal outcomes in mind. I'm sure we're all dealing with certain losses/victories that we consider equally unexpected or otherwise questionable. I'm still not completely happy about seeing Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe advance and leave Yang vs. Reinhard behind. It doesn't strike me as inherently bad, but it isn't ideal. For me, that does come across as not truly representative of which was the stronger rivalry in the grand scheme of things. At the same time, I'm also not very convinced Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma is really all that strong of an option either. But at the end of the day, I think it's those surprises and occasional frustrations that contribute to making these tournaments more interesting and unpredictable. |
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Ggultra2764
Posts: 4051 Location: New York state. |
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Group C Final: Tutu vs Krahe (Princess Tutu)
Ouch, this is a tough match to pick apart. Both rivalries lack any kind of weaknesses I can pick apart as they are legitimately personal for differing reasons, the parties involved have frequent encounters with one another, both acknowledge the other as a rival/ threat, are explored in enough depth to get a sense of tensions between groups and were reasonably entertaining for me to see, even with Princess Tutu being the better quality title for me. I honestly see this match coming down to personal preference for me at this point and in this case since two votes are in for Kouga/ Iga, I'll be supporting the ballerinas. Group D Final: Hikaru vs Akira (Hikaru no Go) Unlike Group C, my decision for this match is more clear for me to make. The feud between the Sohmas is more driven by misunderstandings between the two boys than personal tensions and for the most part, it is more of a personality clash between the two cousins. I've already argued to death in earlier rounds how I feel about Hikaru/ Akira, so I'm not gonna bother highlighting details for right now. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group C Final
Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk The rivalry between Krehe and Tutu is only a sub-plot. It is well-executed, but it is not intrinsic to the plot. I think they should not make it past Yang vs. Reinhard, whose rivalry is also well-executed and intrinsic to the story, so the impact on the story is also greater, far greater. But I should go back to the topic. The rivalry of Krehe and Tutu's opponents seems to be, at least that's what I gather from the arguments of their supporters, a good one and it's central to the plot, so I'm voting for them. Group D Final Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go This is a no-brainer for me. Kyo vs Yuki's rivalry is simply outclassed here. It's fun, but their rivalry is a short one and it's only a sub-plot. As far as the romantic aspect is concerned the outcome is quite clear from the beginning. The fighting aspect most of the time serves as a comic relief. I admit it is entertaining, but it has no sizable impact on the source material. I don't think Yuki and Kyo deserve to advance. I don't even consider them to be the sort of rivalries who should have ideally made it to this round. On the other hand the advancement of Akira and Hikaru to the Final Four is richly deserved.
I agree with nightjuan. Ideally they should not have been in the Final Four, but their opponents were even weaker. Ideally Lelouch/Suzaku should have lost to Capulets vs. Lord Montague in the third round. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Group C Final
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga vs. Iga clans It is not about the amount of blood, where Basilisk wins all the way, but about the complexity of the conflict that has last for a few good centuries and which seems to be fuelled up by cruel fate and by human hatred. The intensity of it is incredible. Even in the first episode, watching Yashamaru and Shougen fight, you can already tell that a lot more is going on here, Ogen's and Danjo's short few exchanges in the first episode show how complicated the whole affair is. Visually beautiful and emotionally complex, wins my vote. Group D Final Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go[/quote] Vote for: Hikaru and Akira I am surprised Yuki and Kyo (despite all my warm feelings for the series) actually made it this far, as the rivalry itself is somewhat lukewarm, so Ill go with the pair which seems to be offering something lot more interesting than some humoristic for most part arguments between two teenage boys. The conflict in Fruits Basket is a background one and the series could do without it, and various arguments supporting the other series won my vote for it. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group C Final
Voting for: Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk I stopped voting for Tutu last round and the arguments for the Basilisk rivals have gotten me interested in that series, which I've known vaguely about for years but never actually looked into until recently. Group D Final Voting for: Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket The arguments against their competition in this round have been enough not to sway me to them (pretty sure I voted against them the last round as well, though that match isn't one that stands out in my memory). And Furaba's pair still is pretty awesome, enough to get another vote from me. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 19132 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Upon review of the OP, I realized that I neglected to carry over the rule which specifically bans doing what you say in bold print. We have always had a standard in these tournaments, though, that material which has not been animated cannot be considered when making decisions or justifying one's votes. Thus everything that you said in spoiler tags is inadmissible, as the anime doesn't go that far on any of those points. You will have to justify your vote based on something else. Oh, and thanks for the heads-up on the thread title. I have corrected it. |
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zawa113
Posts: 7391 |
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Alright, I added in some non-manga stuff to my post. The other 15 or so manga volumes for Furuba are still very much factoring into my vote, it's simply how I know the series, but I can still come up with reasons using a limited amount of each manga anyway. It's impossible for me to know exactly what was animated if I've not seen the anime, so I asked a while ago how far the Furuba anime goes into the manga, and I was told 8 volumes, so I'll just have to go with that (if I hadn't asked out of curiosity, I'd have no idea how far to go. Maybe in the future for series that do not adapt all of the anime, we should try and list how much of the manga it does adapt for those of us who have only read the manga? It's help clarify things for manga readers and maybe invite some more participation from them in the future). I get not including manga only series, but I feel like the manga are still part of the franchises and are usually just as canon as the anime and I'm very familiar with the series because of it. Also, if Persona 4 or Tales of the Abyss were ever in a tourney, would we have to dismiss the games for those? I'd have to imagine that, except for the uber fans of those games, that those who played the games likely went "well I don't need to see the anime now" and will probably make most of their decisions based on the game and would also have no idea what was actually animated or if something was added, etc. I'd still call those who played the games familiar enough with the series though. But alas, the post has been edited to have some non-manga (or really limited manga) reasons in it. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 19132 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yes. This is an Anime forum tournament, so it focuses only on the anime aspects of franchises. Keeping that restriction avoids a lot of problems, including minimizing version discrepancies and staying within forum rules about keeping discussions focused on anime and directly-related concerns. And really, if we did start allowing manga and game content to be figured in, too, then where do we stop? Do we include novel versions? Live-action versions? Ero game versions? Think about how much of a mess it would be if we had a tournament where Guin Saga characters get nominated. There's over 100 books in that series that have never been translated or animated. Who wants to mess with that?
That's what the Guide files, video clips, and voting discussion are for. Thankfully we generally don't have people that lazy who vote on a regular basis. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I agree with the sentiment of disallowing Manga- or VG-only events, characters and plots. This is the Anime sub-forum, and we are judging Anime, not Manga. Some people don't even read Manga or play the games the Anime were based on (such as myself).
Plus it already gets confusing when having two different animated works based on the same Manga (such as Fullmetal Alchemist and Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood). If you allow Manga events as reasons, then since most Anime and Manga differ, it's going to get mighty complicated for most matchups. If Character A is a shrinking violet in the original Manga and then in the Anime she's an action heroine, say, then which version do you believe? No, limiting it to just Anime keeps things simple and logical. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I'd had Goku and Vegeta here, too. If you count my pick, they were tied for Lelouch and Suzaku on who people thought would make it to the Semis from Group B (of course, that's not necessarily who they think deserved to win). In their half of B, I think only Capulets vs Montague were at the same level, though. As things are now, I expect they're going to get pulverized in the Semi-Finals. So, minigame results. There's not a whole let of change left to be made in the order. We're down to 5 people possibly getting prizes, and for the top 2, it's just a matter of which prize they're getting. |
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EmbraceMe
 Posts: 2021 Location: Growing old and jaded. |
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Group C Final
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga vs. Iga clans, the Princess Tutu rivalry interests me and entices me to vote for it but I'm going to go the safe route and vote for the one I have the most knowledge on. Most of the things I want to stay have already been stated so I'll bring back an old argument. Despite the two clans' leaders attempt to end the feud, members in both clans still go after the head of the other. The two clans just refuse to settle for peace. Group D Final Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya is the more complex and better developed rivalry here, imo (and some others too). Hikaru no Go's rivalry is the basis for the character developments, plot, and makes up most of the series. Well, I simply believe they're one of the best rivalries in this tournament and deserve to go on [more than it's opponent]. |
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