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fansubs




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NadNate



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:31 pm Reply with quote
where is a good place to find out when new fansubs come out?
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Moridin



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 40
Location: Buffalo, NY
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:34 pm Reply with quote
I'd try these sites

http://www.advfilms.com
http://www.manga.com
http://www.pioneeranimation.com
http://www.synch-point.com
http://www.urban-vision.com
http://www.bandai.com

I'm missing a few, but this is a good start.


Last edited by Moridin on Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gai Super Napalm



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 148
Location: Hoboken, NJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:48 pm Reply with quote
There are actually some websites that keep track of when a fansub group is finished releasing a title.

Asking about sites that tell you what has been subtitled isn't as annoying as "Where can i download anime for free" or "where can i get fansubs on the net", so in this case i'd probably can the sarcasm.

Anyway; i don't know any URL offhand, but #animenews on efnet (irc) is run by a fairly hardworking guy, and he must have a few friends in some sub groups or something; anyway theres news bots in that channel and he has a website you can use the triggers to find it.
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Moridin



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 40
Location: Buffalo, NY
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Gai Super Napalm wrote:

Asking about sites that tell you what has been subtitled isn't as annoying as "Where can i download anime for free" or "where can i get fansubs on the net", so in this case i'd probably can the sarcasm.


It's not annoying until he goes to those sites and asks where to download anime anyway. I'm not going to point out those sites so people who invest a great deal of time translating anime for little reward to have to explain what fansubs are and how most fansubbers conduct themselves. The chain of events with questions like this in my experience either "are" asking where to get fansubs indirectly or lead to such questions.

It also seems to be asking about upcoming releases. We all know how much fansubbers appreciate questions about when they will release such and such a show.
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 2460
Location: Do not contact me for support.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:00 pm Reply with quote
Note: Personal opinions follow, not necessarily reflecting those of ANN.

While fansubs may have been essential to the development of anime fandom in america at one point...

It seems quite obvious to me that digital fansubbing is little more than piracy, extraneous and unnecessary... and, more often than not, HURTING the american anime scene **AND** the Japanese anime scene.

To quote E-F:
"Our goal is to subtitle the anime for the fans, to help them be patient and wait for the title to become licensed, and prove to companies that the title is worth licensing!"

According to the State of the Anime Industry panel at AX2k1, companies such as ADV have been offered shows while they're still only storyboards and rough animation. Companies don't need fansubs anymore to see what's a quality series and what isn't. They haven't "needed" fansubs to spot what's good for a long time.

Additionally, according to Matt Greenfield at Otakon 2000, fansubs _have_ hurt the industry. How much is debatable, but there certainly seems to be some loss in sales due to fansubbing. He cited Catgirl Nuku Nuku (which, to this day, is only available subbed): When they purchased the rights, Nuku Nuku OVAs 1-4 (ADV vols. 1-2) were being passed around anime fandom. OVAs 5-6 weren't as heavily distributed. After tallying sales, Nuku Nuku Vol. 3 -outsold- volumes 1-2 by a fairly substantial margin (I believe he said "several thousand" tapes. I can check my notes if you really want to know. Heck, I should check them anyways; i've been meaning to look up a few things that were said at previous cons anyways).

Generally, one would suspect that the most-purchased tapes will be the first tapes in a series... while the later tapes will generally decline in sales as fans lose interest half-way through. Companies rarely disclose video sales, and generally only offer a ballpark number if pushed on the question.. It makes assessing the size of the industry very difficult.

Digital fansubbing merely eliminates the trouble of VHS tapes, packages, stamps and/or money... people download digisubs because the downloads are effectively 'free'. At least, most people think of them that way (although it rarely is such; most people pay for bandwidth, access, and/or connection fees)

Considering quite a few people think DivX is DVD quality (which it isn't, and i'll smother you in proof if you disagree!) that means the only real incentive to buy anime DVDs is the extras, and to be 'legitimate'... and, if Nuku Nuku is any example, a good portion of people simply keep their fansubs instead of buying the legitimate product.. or keeping the fansubs AND buying the legitimate product (I've done both..)

Couple downloads with CD-Rs and we get VCD piracy.. At any given time there are about 250 anime VCD auctions on eBay, and 99% of them are illegal as, to my understanding, there are fewer than two dozen legit anime VCDs (excluding the adult anime market, but that's not what's being sold on eBay!) Downloading anime hurts the JAPANESE side of the industry too, as high-speed connections become cheaper in Japan.. since a number of sites and services (do a search on WinMX sometime) offer raw japanese anime. It's not as popular as digisubs, of course, but it's still out there.

... and let's not even get started on digital bootlegging (downloading commercially released anime, usually with commercial subtitles or dubs)

Additional Info added later that night..:

The point I want to make is that for fansubbing to remain useful, and to -not- hurt the industry, then fansubbers need to cover titles that will -not- be picked up by American companies...

10 years ago, fansubbing showed companies that commercially subtitled tapes could be sold to Americans. 5 years ago, fansubs showed companies that shoujo was a viable genre in America.

... but what does fansubbing do for anyone in America today?

Aside from bishonen (which Media Blasters is picking up), sports (which no one seems to want to touch with a 9' pole) and "non-mahou shoujo" shoujo (which Tokyopop and ADV seem to be slowly sneaking into) it seems that every major genre of anime is represented in America.
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Gai Super Napalm



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 148
Location: Hoboken, NJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:04 pm Reply with quote
Its fairly obvious that divx != dvd.. anyone else who says otherwise probably does not own dvds.

However; in my opinion i do not think that fansubbing has outlived its usefulness.

The reasons are obviously mostly just disagreement in opinion, although the nuku-nuku figure is pretty intriguing.

The term "anime-fandom" refering to the times of Nuku-Nuku do not accurately portray the size or face of today's Anime-fandom. In that example i think it hurt the industry; but i don't know how many people would buy a title named "Love Hina" that will be buying theirs in february had they not seen the fansubs; i know a *lot* of anime fans were created solely because of those fansubs.

I think we'll see when bandai releases it on the 19th whether or not the new generation of sub watcher will buy the series or not. However as great (or at least you have to admit appealing) the series is, i doubt it'd have the huge fan base it does have without the fansubbing. I'm going to let this example form my opinion; and then revise it as other series that were heavily distributed in fansubs that might not have had appeal otherwise get out there.

I have a legitimate question, however..

Out of curiosity, what kind of advertising do these companies do? Every single thing i've EVER found out, i've had to look for and read myself. I have to search for the information i want; and i KNOW that casual non-anime fan number 4 isnt going to do this. How do otaku become otaku? I think that might be a big problem; I know most of the people i konw get into it through a friend or something; NOT from a dvd they saw on the shelf of a video store. I'm sure DBZ and Pokemon and Sailor moon have helped out tremendously too; and with kids growing up with anime on tv maybe they wont need it now (although there were anime series on tv a long time ago).. anyway; how does one hear about something like Saber Marionette J; besides the existing fanbase, how do these dvds pick up sales?

Without online fansubbing i think the spread of anime knowledge would be severely impaired.. thats not to say that its good or bad, its needed or whatever.. thats not the point, i just think that the fan base would grow more slowly than it has in recent years. Suppose hypothetically this online trade (im not going to call it piracy even if it is, because in my mind piracy is done for profit and this is done at a loss) were to stop tomorow, what would happen?

Some titles get absolutely no type of press at all. Something like Vandread would be released completely unnoticed if not for a dedicated fanbase created by what i think are fansubs.

The bottom line is fan's are willing to try out so many things (and in many instance buy many things) because they are cheap/free as fansubs. I do not think with retail prices; even seeing the DRAMATIC improvement of $$/episode comparrison's in recent years with the dvd format; will ever allow for commercial released things to spread like fansubs do. Whether it should or not or whether anime is a privaledge not a right, i've heard these a lot, and thats not the point. If you are not within this subculture; great shows that everyone inside it know about go by completely unrecognized. If you asked a person on the street what DBZ is they'd know right away; I even saw dragon ball Z fruit snacks at A&P tonight. But if you ask them what Nadesico is, a show almost universally held by those who have watched it as quality, they'll ask you to repeat the question, becuase they wont know it. How do, or what do american companies plan to do in the future, they get the growth of the subculture, or even beter the saturation of anime into our own culture; so that their releases can reach more eyes? Even with wide spread cheap/free fansubs available online, the number of otaku represents a fairly small percentage of what i think it could be given that there was a bigger advertising campaign.

This post is really unorganized and im sorry for that, but i hope some of the points i was trying to get at are explained enough so that a comment that isn't taking my words to mean what they do not is not posted after me.
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Moridin



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 40
Location: Buffalo, NY
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:08 pm Reply with quote
I've watched fansubs and still do occasionally. I appreciate the efforts of the fansubbers who do this to promote a series that they think is worthy. If everyone lived by those ideals then, the "fansub" system would work. I'd wager that 90% or more of the people who download a show do not buy it when it is commercially available. If they do buy one show, what about the other 10 shows they downloaded? There are also cases like Furi Kuri where most of the DVDs have an english track. I doubt many people sought out the Japanese DVDs for the any of the episodes.

I think a big thing that skips under the radar is that fansubs have slowed down commercial releases IMO. Since you can now obtaib pretty good quality subs for free, companies have to make the DVD more appealing. Thus the extras. I rarely care about extras, especially when it slows the release.

Fansubs have played a role and will continue to do so. I think the positives of fansubs do not balance out the negatives. It works two ways though. If official companies would manage to get series out closer to their release in Japan or at least obtain rights to a series then fansubbing would decline.

Fansubbing, no matter how noble the intent, is wrong. I think a number of people wouldn't bother if there was a viable DVD(or VHS) option avilable for purchase. It ultimately hurts the aquisition and release of commercial titles. If you are thinking of licensing a popular fansub title then you have to consider how many people are willing to pay for it. Opinions can change drastically when even just a few bucks is involved.
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NadNate



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:09 pm Reply with quote
well, i just wanted to know when they where released, so i can know when to go get them, i know how to get fansubs. I didn't mean to start a whole big argument.
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Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10419
Location: Do not message me for support.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:16 pm Reply with quote
NadNate wrote:

well, i just wanted to know when they where released, so i can know when to go get them, i know how to get fansubs. I didn't mean to start a whole big argument.


"The Fansub" question is one of the "eternal debates", along with "Dub vs Sub" and "Robotech vs Macross." The instant you start talking about any of these topics, even a very minor question, people are bound to bring up the debate all over again.

Unfortunately many people keep on repeating the same old arguements, time and again. I'm very happy and pleased to see that didn't happen this time.

The "eternal debate" is one of the reasons that many forums ban discussions about fansubbing (other reasons include not wanting to see the forum used to distribute fansub info and fear of the ire of the distributors). Here at ANN we aren't quite so weak willed, so as long as the discussion remains intelligent (or at least halfway intelligent) we won't stop people from discussing it.
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ShockWave



Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 22
Location: Atlanta
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:19 pm Reply with quote
I agree that Digital Fan Subs have probably hurt more then helped the retail anime market. The Nuku Nuku example is superb proof of that. However, I hold the opinion that the US anime companies also need to step up the level of professionalism. To my knowledge, few if any releases met their target dates this year. They closely guard their sales figures so we are left guessing as to the success or lack thereof of any product and info vacuum between announcing they have liscensed a product and annoucing plans for release is staggering. I'd like to see these companies take the steps to build more confidence that the series, OVAs and movies that I am waiting for will indeed see the light of day rather then leaving me guessing and desperate for info.
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NadNate



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:20 pm Reply with quote
whoa! i found a site that shows new fansub releases without your guys help. You guys can off on your jibberish talking, i didn't need your help anyways.

http://www.[This URL is a known Fansub Distribution website]/news/Releases.php
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Gai Super Napalm



Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 148
Location: Hoboken, NJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:30 pm Reply with quote
After being introduced to anime through fansubs and spending literally thousands of dollars on commercial releases; its hard for me to say that they hurt the industry.

I admit, there probably are a lot of people who don't buy a show because they have fansubs of it.

But; Im still hesitant to form an opinion on whether the number of people who would not have bought the commercial release but do because of the fansub outweigh the ammount of people who would have, but didn't because they had a fansub.

It would appear there are examples of this being negative, but frankly it happened with a different type of fansubbing; People who had the fansubs to Nuku Nuku had to *buy* them for probably somewhere around 5 - 10 dollars an episode. I can see why they'd be hesitant to spend money on a show they already spent money on; but digital fansubbing is distributed freely (theres bandwidth cost but the percentage of people who wouldn't pay that cost, but do to get fansubs is probably fractional if not nonexistent), and now you are looking at spending money for a series as opposed to not spending money at all for it; and i think spending money, as opposed to spending *more* money, might make a difference. Again; these are simply points to ponder.

As for FLCL being an example; it isn't. There were english subtitles on the japanese DVDs, but Japanese DVDs are R2. Most if not all american DVD players wont play R2, which means the only people that would benefit from the DVDs (IE be able to watch them) would be people who (either bought an apex player a long time ago heh) imported a region free dvd player from somewhere else. (Im not sure about the legality of this, but i think it might be good/gray) Then, theres the fact that the dvds were 50 bucks a pop for one episode; thats 300 dollars for the whole 6 episode OVA (actually its like 280, the first dvd was cheaper). Cowboy bebop and Trigun together only cost me about 290. And thats 52 episodes; not 6. Basically; each dvd had half the episodes of a regular american release at double the price; plus your trying to justify knowledge of anime that has not even been licensed here, while under the assumption that there are no fansubs of it; which in my opinion would be slim to none. Not to mention that this is STILL R2 we are talking about here; something a casual anime fan most likely doesnt have the equipment to play; let alone joe american. The difficulty with the dvd region coding and the inflated price of japanese dvd's make importing only for the hardcore anime fan; and considering that the first episode lacked english subtitles, the field of people who would import probably shrank again by a good 90%.

I think perhaps, like me, many did not buy the dvd's for the sole reason that we knew the show would come out here with a better english script and at 1/4th the price per episode.. and its going to, and i preordered it already.
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garry
Former ANN Editor


Joined: 12 Jan 2002
Posts: 120
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Sirs:

I seem to have run out of things to say about the subject. I think a few people might be happy about that.
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