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Hindu U.S. Statesman Objects to Depiction of Deities in Manga


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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:23 am Reply with quote
It would be one thing if the criticism was aimed at depictions of real life entities, historical or present, but when all the objects depicted are fictional themselves, it's fictional all the way down. Hope someone with an archetype for a world turtle won't feel slighted by that line...
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:52 am Reply with quote
Quote:
It would be one thing if the criticism was aimed at depictions of real life entities, historical or present, but when all the objects depicted are fictional themselves, it's fictional all the way down. Hope someone with an archetype for a world turtle won't feel slighted by that line...
I don't quite gather what you're getting at. Are you suggesting the gods being represented are fictional too? The objection implies these gods are just as real as gods from any other faith.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:59 am Reply with quote
Past wrote:
I don't quite gather what you're getting at. Are you suggesting the gods being represented are fictional too? The objection implies these gods are just as real as gods from any other faith.

What I'm getting at people have had differing notions of their objects of worship, as a concept as well as an image, through ages no matter the religion in question(in Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, etc, in Islam, Sunni, Shia etc...) so there's never been any accurate depictions to rely on to begin with...
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Kokushibou



Joined: 13 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
Past wrote:
I don't quite gather what you're getting at. Are you suggesting the gods being represented are fictional too? The objection implies these gods are just as real as gods from any other faith.

What I'm getting at people have had differing notions of their objects of worship, as a concept as well as an image, through ages no matter the religion in question(in Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, etc, in Islam, Sunni, Shia etc...) so there's never been any accurate depictions to rely on to begin with...


So you think the guy is criticizing how they are physically and visually depicted? I doubt that. I can't speak for the manga in the thumbnail since I didn't read it but the article also mentions that he criticized Apocalypse in X-men movie since he said he was Krishna which is a highly revered god in Hinduism and many religious communities in India criticized that for making their god a villain. And as the article says he's talking about how Shiva is "trivialized". Shiva,Vishnu and Brahma are often used like final bosses or someone that needs to be fought against in many anime, manga and games, this is similar to greek gods like zeus,hades and posiedon being used but the difference here is unlike just being treated as mythical gods the Hindu gods are regularly worshiped and revered, there are numerous holidays and festivals in their name so even if you're not a hindu and live in India you'd know how big a deal they are. Think of it like jesus being a final villain. Offcourse, it's not like Jesus is not used in fiction, there are quite a few banned material about it, just take 'The Last Temtation of Christ' for example.
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Ambrose7



Joined: 11 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:54 pm Reply with quote
Mate. I'm Indian and follow the Hindu faith. I don't agree with him. Artists can take liberties when depicting characters from mythologies. Our worshiping them shouldn't matter. More importantly these are the artists's interpretation and not exactly the same.

As for the person complaining he has done this several times. Once because he didn't like Krishna being the villain in SMT IVA. His problem stems from any depiction that he doesn't like. If his voice matters, so should mine. I don't have any issue with the artistic liberties taken. I'm sure there are several people who agree and disagree. But at the end, if history can used for fiction, faith can be too. People should understand the idea is to create a story not to offend.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:48 pm Reply with quote
If he doesn't like how they're depicted in a manga, then he shouldn't buy the manga. Problem solved.
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Eigengrau



Joined: 09 May 2015
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Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Why do I feel the sudden urge to re-watch Shurato now?
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:53 pm Reply with quote
Kokushibou wrote:
...this is similar to greek gods like zeus,hades and posiedon being used but the difference here is unlike just being treated as mythical gods the Hindu gods are regularly worshiped and revered, there are numerous holidays and festivals in their name so even if you're not a hindu and live in India you'd know how big a deal they are.

I honestly can't tell if this is trolling or not.

Surely you do realize where the large majority of our calendar system gets their names, right?

If anything, getting Hindu gods on the same level of social acceptance as Greek/Roman and Norse gods should be the goal, and for whatever reason this US statesman doesn't want such to happen. Strange.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:34 pm Reply with quote
I am sure the Japanese creator of the series got a chuckle out of this.

Also, a U.S. Statesman, whatever that is, doesn't have a leg to stand on, considering what we do to the Christian pantheon (for want of a better word).
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:10 am Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
What I'm getting at people have had differing notions of their objects of worship, as a concept as well as an image, through ages no matter the religion in question(in Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, etc, in Islam, Sunni, Shia etc...) so there's never been any accurate depictions to rely on to begin with...
Well, I fully stand behind this guy who's complaining about his gods being trivialized and used in a negative light in his view. And I think whether you're from India or not, and Hindu or whatever is beside the point. These deities have cultural and historical significance for many people and when they are being culturally appropriated in disrespectful ways, the line has been crossed.

But what about freedom of artistic expression? One may feel they are at liberty to use any creative or inspired element they choose, but using specific cultural references from a culture besides your own requires a bit of tact and foresight. It's like the blond haired guy with the big nose in anime whos always a villain or loser. Creators getting shit on for this racial epithet is kind of expected (although I'm sure most fans don't care).
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DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 505
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:33 am Reply with quote
Kokushibou wrote:
So you think the guy is criticizing how they are physically and visually depicted? I doubt that. I can't speak for the manga in the thumbnail since I didn't read it but the article also mentions that he criticized Apocalypse in X-men movie since he said he was Krishna which is a highly revered god in Hinduism and many religious communities in India criticized that for making their god a villain. And as the article says he's talking about how Shiva is "trivialized". Shiva,Vishnu and Brahma are often used like final bosses or someone that needs to be fought against in many anime, manga and games, this is similar to greek gods like zeus,hades and posiedon being used but the difference here is unlike just being treated as mythical gods the Hindu gods are regularly worshiped and revered, there are numerous holidays and festivals in their name so even if you're not a hindu and live in India you'd know how big a deal they are. Think of it like jesus being a final villain. Offcourse, it's not like Jesus is not used in fiction, there are quite a few banned material about it, just take 'The Last Temtation of Christ' for example.


More or less the main key here is Hinduism is still actively practiced by millions of people; it's the third largest practiced religion behind Christianity and Islam. It's far more taboo to make fun of or depict a currently recognized world religion than an older one who is either not worshipped anymore or limited to a few small fringe pagan groups. The only reason Greek, Egyptian, Norse, and all similar gods stopped being worshipped was due to other religions subjugating and converting them to their own religions.

In general, I say artists should do whatever they want and if people don't like it that's on them, but that's why you see complaints and controversy about depictions of practiced religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judism, but not the older religions society has collectively demoted to "mythologies" and had free reign to turn into superheroes or other characters in media without any complaints. There's no one left to complain about them. In some alternate timeline where we all worship Odin or Ra instead, then it'd be reversed.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:45 am Reply with quote
But isn't it better to at least have recognition instead of social obscurity? Like take my particular Christian denomination, the phenomenon of The Book of Mormon musical has done incredible, incredible things for the social acceptance of missionary work of Latter-day Saints and the LDS faith in general. And instead of the LDS church leaders getting all outraged because of the minor vulgarities contained therein or how it doesn't paint a perfectly rosy picture of many aspects of LDS lifestyle, they instead embraced it and tried to make the best of the newly found interest in the faith.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Funny how he doesn't mention Final Fantasy games where Shiva routinely appears (wrongly) as a female and is usually a summon character used to blow away enemies. I bet millions of people around the world think the god Shiva is female from playing FF games.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:29 am Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
But isn't it better to at least have recognition instead of social obscurity? Like take my particular Christian denomination, the phenomenon of The Book of Mormon musical has done incredible, incredible things for the social acceptance of missionary work of Latter-day Saints and the LDS faith in general. And instead of the LDS church leaders getting all outraged because of the minor vulgarities contained therein or how it doesn't paint a perfectly rosy picture of many aspects of LDS lifestyle, they instead embraced it and tried to make the best of the newly found interest in the faith.
It's really a similar situation with something I'm concerned with on ANN. I can't seem to get a feel for whether obscurity or lucrative recognition is better when it comes to LGBTQ content. We see how fans such as fujoshi can often leave wrong impressions of gay identity.

So my support for people offended by trivial use of and profiteering from likenesses of Hindu deities stems from this analogy you made about the value of recognition.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:08 am Reply with quote
Past wrote:

So my support for people offended by trivial use of and profiteering from likenesses of Hindu deities stems from this analogy you made about the value of recognition.

And I've never really understood the argument for those in favor of obscurity when it come to that choice.

Also, profiteering is, uh, kinda misguided? Well, not even kinda, it's really, really misguided. Not many people are buying these manga/anime/games for the explicit reason of seeing Hindu deities. To call it profiteering, oof.
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