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Hey, Answerman! - Color Me Surprised


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Reaper gI



Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 299
Location: UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Most English manga companies do keep the colour pages from the Japanese tankoubon. There are often some pages that are colour in serialisation only, so those will always be black and white.

There's also often a common practice of only keeping them in in the first edition in Englsih. So if you're catching up on a series, rather than preordering it, you often won't get them; even if they were reproduced.


Last edited by Reaper gI on Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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doctordoom85



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:56 pm Reply with quote
Fist of the North Star DID get another chance, you can buy all 4 boxsets containing the whole series for a very reasonable price.

Also, Brian's right, FUNimation gave a VERY GENEROUS chance with Case Closed. Releasing Seasons 4 and 5 in 26-episode sets for $50 MSRP right off the bat is the best episode/price ratio an initial release (key word is "initial", before someone gets confused) has gotten from FUNimation, or heck probably any anime company for that matter. Add 6 movies, and any griping is just ridiculous. Not to mention FUNimation has hinted more of the movies (not TV series, that's over) might be licensed as movies 1-6 sold fairly well.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8172
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:15 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The localization was fantastic


It was tolerable at best. For several seasons, the dub implied the show took place in the Western United States and referred to Osaka as Canada. And voices and performances vary wildly.
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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2012
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:30 pm Reply with quote
doctordoom85 wrote:
Fist of the North Star DID get another chance, you can buy all 4 boxsets containing the whole series for a very reasonable price.


I was planning on saying this same exact thing, but I think Brain was referring more to the fact that both FotNS and Saint Seiya got TV deals when they were first licensed, and neither of those are ever going to get second chances quite like that again. FotNS got a second chance, yes, but 3/4 of this second chance is being released sub-only and is not getting aired on TV.

Now here's hoping Saint Seiya can get a second chance like how FotNS got it...
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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2012
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:32 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Quote:
The localization was fantastic


It was tolerable at best. For several seasons, the dub implied the show took place in the Western United States and referred to Osaka as Canada. And voices and performances vary wildly.


FUNi has stated multiple times that any and all alterations and removals of anything Japan-related in the dub was ordered from TMS themselves, who wanted the show to appeal to as many American fans as possible.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Wow, wish I had answered the live-action movie question. I was hoping someone would mention Death Note. It would be very easy to adapt; they wouldn't need to be a ton of CGI and the story could easily be adapted for North America. Course, it depends on who makes it and how the adaptation is handled, so there's still a chance it could suck. But out of all the possible anime/manga adaptations, this would be the easiest one.

And, oh, Hellsing, of course! Seriously, someone make it happen! Very Happy
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Reaper gI wrote:
Most English manga companies do keep the colour pages from the Japanese tankoubon. There are often some pages that are colour in serialisation only, so those will alway be black and white.

There's also often a common practice of only keeping them in in the first edition in Englsih. So if you're catching up on a series, rather than preordering it, you often won't get them; even if they were reproduced.


Having worked as a production manager for two periodical (magazine) publishers, I can say that there are two factors at work here. Cost, and time.

When printing something like a manga volume, the printer will set up for a black and white run. The printing is done on one large sheet, called a "signature" which consists of sixteen pages. If there are color pages, those pages will be printed in a different "set-up" for 4-color process. On top of that, the printer will also have to use a different paper for that set-up, since the paper used for black and white printing will not support the ink saturation inherent in 4-color process. This paper and the set-up costs more. This additional set up has to happen regardless of how many pages are actually in 4 color process.

My guess with most manga, those few additional color pages are not done with the regular print run, the costs of doing it that way are just too expensive. Especially when you are factoring in the extra cost of the paper (you are paying for entire sheets that support 16 pages of color, even though only one or two actually are in color, you still are paying for the whole sheet of expensive paper). You are going to have that extra 1 or two pages printed individually away from the regular print run, most of the time by a different vendor, and delivered to the bindery as an "insert". This is pretty expensive too, but in some cases the cost is much less than doing it the other way.

The problem with that method is time. You need to have the materials way ahead of the normal print run. In most cases, you will have to arrange for the printing and delivery of that single color page appearing in Volume 10 while you are in production of Volume 9. Sometimes the materials don't arrive early enough, and all your vendors are busy with other clients and they can't fit your page into their schedules. This is a HUGE headache, especially if you are contractually obligated to print the page that way (though that is kind of rare).

My guess as to why the Japanese volumes have the color page and the U.S. volumes do not is because of the time involved. Watching Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi is amusing for me because I have experienced all the headaches that Takano is going through, especially those scenes where he is on the phone, yelling.

....and this explanation is a simplified as I can make it. There are so many things that can go wrong.
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boznia



Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 189
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
There are a few family-friendly shows that draw huge audiences that air in prime time (Detective Conan, Doraemon, One Piece), kids shows that air in the mornings over the weekend (Pokémon), and a whole mess of shows that air late at night for the austere, "mature" individual (everything else).

Pokémon airs in the evening and One Piece in the morning, but otherwise, your point rings true.
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tangytangerine



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 439
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:05 pm Reply with quote
Lord Geo wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
Quote:
The localization was fantastic

It was tolerable at best. For several seasons, the dub implied the show took place in the Western United States and referred to Osaka as Canada. And voices and performances vary wildly.

FUNi has stated multiple times that any and all alterations and removals of anything Japan-related in the dub was ordered from TMS themselves, who wanted the show to appeal to as many American fans as possible.


Yeah, the dub's localization is what soured me for the english version. I can understand TMS wanting to "americanize" it somewhat, but at least keep it set in Japan. I really couldn't put up with many of the english names for the characters either, as they just sounded too generic.

As for another company picking up the tv series, that will probably never happen. The show is at 620(621 as of tomorrow) episodes, which some of those being 1-2 hour specials. Which those specials would then be broken up into 30 minute shows. No company realistically would want to do all that work for what would likely be mediocre sales. Especially with all the things TMS is forced on the releases here.
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Reaper gI



Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 299
Location: UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:15 pm Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:


My guess as to why the Japanese volumes have the color page and the U.S. volumes do not is because of the time involved. Watching Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi is amusing for me because I have experienced all the headaches that Takano is going through, especially those scenes where he is on the phone, yelling.

....and this explanation is a simplified as I can make it. There are so many things that can go wrong.

As I mentioned the US first editions do have them. Not sure about Viz, none of the manga I have from them had colour pages originaly.

Why would there only be these time contraints leading to ommission on the reprints, or does the smaller(I'd assume) run size make it prohibitavely expensive .
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Melanchthon



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 550
Location: Northwest from Here
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:36 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
For several seasons, the dub implied the show took place in the Western United States and referred to Osaka as Canada.


Well. Osaka, Canada, what's the difference? I, for one, can't tell them apart. They're both famous for their comedy and their funny way of talking.

Quote:
"anime" is basically for...otherwise socially maladjusted, lonely shut-ins

You rang?
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DavidShallcross



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1008
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Concerning the late night anime in Japan, recall that in Lucky Star Konata complains about anything that disrupts the television schedules, and interferes with her recording of her shows. So just because the shows air after midnight, doesn't mean that the viewers aren't watching it at more reasonable times.

It does limit causal viewers, I suppose, unless they have insomnia or jet lag. (Just the thing after the trans-Pacific flight.)
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:10 pm Reply with quote
Reaper gI wrote:
tuxedocat wrote:


My guess as to why the Japanese volumes have the color page and the U.S. volumes do not is because of the time involved. Watching Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi is amusing for me because I have experienced all the headaches that Takano is going through, especially those scenes where he is on the phone, yelling.

....and this explanation is a simplified as I can make it. There are so many things that can go wrong.

As I mentioned the US first editions do have them. Not sure about Viz, none of the manga I have from them had colour pages originaly.

Why would there only be these time contraints leading to ommission on the reprints, or does the smaller(I'd assume) run size make it
prohibitavely expensive .


I can only make educated guesses here, but I think that it is because they are still working from film and not digitally. I think that most artists provide their color pages hand-painted. Watching Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi, I'm seeing those guys still doing paste-up by hand, which I don't think anybody over here still does.

Any printer worth their salt is going to be able to do digital direct-to press. However, the publishers are still doing it an older way since their artists don't know how to set up their art to spec. The publisher then has to make film from their color painting. This is 4 pieces of film with registration marks, which gets sent to the printer and usually kept there if a reprint is needed. The printer will make a digital file from the film, but usually they never keep the digital information past the print run. Some printers have storage services, but publishing companies hardly ever use them. ($$$)

Now if the american publisher needs that film, the Japanese publisher has to either send their only copies of the film overseas, or make new film, or send it digitally. My guess is that they see this as a (1)extra cost and (2)extra hassle. No prob if the publisher has the color pages already direct-to-press (digital), however, if that company is still doing paste-up pages (as seen in Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi), they have to provide film. The American publisher is stuck with waiting for them to get around to it and the shipping of the physical product. The Japanese may just opt out, or the materials will arrive too late for the schedule.

edited to add: If you are talking about American second printings, yes -smaller print runs = more cost per volume. Anime catgrin + sweatdrop
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silentjay



Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 302
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:21 pm Reply with quote
tangytangerine wrote:
I can understand TMS wanting to "americanize" it somewhat, but at least keep it set in Japan.


TMS are notorious for demanding questionable localization choices based on bizarre assumptions of what foreigner audiences want.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Detective Conan is a perfect example of the basic differences of cultures between Japan and the United States. In Japan, it is a kids show that can be enjoyed by the whole family. I've experienced first hand seeing Japanese moms and dads and their 8 year old sons and daughters watching it together. Here, it would never fly as a kids show, despite the fact that the show itself, while dealing with quite a lot of mature themes and situations, isn't really that gory or bad (well, excluding cases like where that one guy kept the severed head of a girl taped to his body) but it's still fairly lighthearted and comedic a lot of the time, and most of the episodes have an important theme to them, for example.

spoiler[A woman and this man were part of a comedy duo, and also lovers, and the woman staged a crime one night so it looked like the man was dressed as a robber and broke into her apartment and stabbed him to death in self defense. Eventually Conan figures out it was a set up and the woman admits it was all a lie and she really staged it so she could murder him. She did it because she overheard him talking to their manager about 'I'm going to cease being her partner and go solo from here on out, and I'm no longer going to be her boyfriend too" and murdered him in anger over thinking he was going to abandon her as both a girlfriend and as a stage partner. After she confesses, a package arrives at the door and she opens it and it turns out to be a wedding ring from her boyfriend. The letter says he noticed that her health has been getting worse and worse over the years and he wants her to quit the comedy duo and let him support the two of them as a solo act out of fear that if they continue their comedy duo it will cost her her life, and he wants to do it as her husband, not her boyfriend, and proposes to her. After reading it and seeing the ring, she breaks down crying and wishing she could take back what she did.]

It tells a tragic, but important lesson of never letting your emotions get the better of your reasoning, and most of the cases usually end with the culprit regretting their actions (though there's also a good chunk who don't and you may even sympathize with for what the 'victim' did to them) but you will never in a million years see something like that in an American kids show. It had to be shoved in the middle of the night on an adult block, when it would be more appropriate on regular Cartoon Network

Combined with the fact a lot of the cases involved the manipulation or altering of Japanese kanji/hiragana/katakana and Japanese folk lore and legends, it's kind of one of those 'impossible to dub' shows, and watching it subbed is pretty much the only way, and even then you'll need translator notes on the screen a lot of times.
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