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INTEREST: Black Butler Creator Comments on Works With Homosexual Love


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Gemnist



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 1529
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quote
Come on, we all know Grell is Sebastian's true soulmate.
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Aquamine-Amarine



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 276
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:59 pm Reply with quote
Gemnist wrote:
Come on, we all know Grell is Sebastian's true soulmate.


I'll assume that you're being sarcastic.

Quote:
...but there are so many wonderful stories about same-sex romance...


And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with.

Quote:
...Black Butler certainly has romantic elements...


Not really... unless you're talking about one sided love, like Grell's creepy obsession with Sebastian. Or the Madame Red flashbacks where she was crushing on Vincent. The only other romantic element I can think of is Elizabeth's love for Ciel, spoiler[although the manga recently revealed that the Ciel Elizabeth is in love with isn't the current Ciel at all - it's his older twin brother who recently reappeared.]
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Roxas4ever
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 151
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:13 pm Reply with quote
Sebastian x Ciel isn't problematic because it's two guys. It's problematic because it's pedophilia.

It's weird to me that that isn't the discussion at hand.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 4631
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:16 pm Reply with quote
I don't read Black Butler, but I gotta give props to a manga-ka who prefers zombies and tanks to romance. Too many boring romance manga, not enough zombie crushing tanks.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 2069
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Aquamine-Amarine wrote:
And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with.

With the caveat that my only exposure to the franchise is the first season of anime, I got the impression that the otherworldly beings were genderfluid, but even still, there were enough reaction shots of a male-presenting Sebastian to imply that this was totally a gay relationship. No "delusion" required.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 12884
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:33 pm Reply with quote
Aquamine-Amarine wrote:
And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with.


Precisely. Of course that's become a bit complicated in recent years since many shows now love to be ambiguous about whether a relationship is supposed to be viewed as romantic or not.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Aquamine-Amarine wrote:
And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with.


Reminds me of those fangirls who led a campaign to harass the author of Tokyo Ghoul and tried to doxx/get him to kill himself when he revealed Kaneki wasn't gay.
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Jedi Master Kirito



Joined: 29 May 2015
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Wishful thinking aside, there is nothing romantic between Sebastian and Ciel.
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ArnisEnthusiast



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:
With the caveat that my only exposure to the franchise is the first season of anime, I got the impression that the otherworldly beings were genderfluid, but even still, there were enough reaction shots of a male-presenting Sebastian to imply that this was totally a gay relationship. No "delusion" required.


The anime was purposely designed to pander to the fans of the manga that were fujoshi. Things like "the corset scene" were never in the manga. The manga is the only thing relevant in this discussion because this article is about statements made by the creator of the manga. So technically you were not "delusional", but that isn't relevant here.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:43 pm Reply with quote
ArnisEnthusiast wrote:
The anime was purposely designed to pander to the fans of the manga that were fujoshi.


Funny then that they threw in a random sex scene between Sebastian and a woman.
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Punch Drunk Marc



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1249
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Lord Oink wrote:
Aquamine-Amarine wrote:
And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with.


Reminds me of those fangirls who led a campaign to harass the author of Tokyo Ghoul and tried to doxx/get him to kill himself when he revealed Kaneki wasn't gay.


That still remains one of the saddest things I've ever seen. I don't know how they didn't see Kaneki/Touka coming from a mile away.

Same thing happened in Fairy Tail with the Miraxus/Fraxus/Laxana wars spoiler[(which is funny since none of them became canon by the end. In fact Mashima went out his way in the final chapter to say that Laxus/Mirajane wasn't even a possibility)], as well as the whole NaruSasu debacle.
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ArnisEnthusiast



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:49 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Funny then that they threw in a random sex scene between Sebastian and a woman.


The fujoshi side of the fandom and the fans that want to have sex with Sebastian have many people in common from my experience, so it makes sense that they threw in that scene.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5310
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:44 pm Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
I don't read Black Butler, but I gotta give props to a manga-ka who prefers zombies and tanks to romance. Too many boring romance manga, not enough zombie crushing tanks.


Isn't this exactly the kind of prejudice that she's speaking against? She says romance stories are very energetic and difficult to write, but she's criticizing people who belittle those stories just for being romantic. I'm not a huge fan of the romance genre, but I'm honestly tired of it being treated as second-class or inferior to action or adventure stories. Feels like the all too easy "thing for women bad, thing for men good"
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Break Xerxes



Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The anime was purposely designed to pander to the fans of the manga that were fujoshi. Things like "the corset scene" were never in the manga. The manga is the only thing relevant in this discussion because this article is about statements made by the creator of the manga. So technically you were not "delusional", but that isn't relevant here.

The corset scene was from the manga.
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#861208



Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 423
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:50 pm Reply with quote
- Sebastian is not romantically interested in Ciel. He sees him as food.

- Genderfluid demons = more or less canon

- Corset scene is in manga, anime, stage plays

- Sebastian sleeping with a random woman = in both anime (s1) and manga (Circus)

- Toboso is smart (though I need to catch up to see what's up with this new twist thing)

- If Ciel/Lizzy isn't a thing, Ciel/Sieglinde could work. Or Ciel/Finny. But Ciel is most likely going to die.
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