Forum - View topic
INTEREST: Veteran Animators Discuss Positives, Negatives of Digital Anime Production




Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Morry



Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:08 pm Reply with quote
Honestly, per hour does sound like a worthy consideration. With how often projects go late into the night, having a flat rate to encompass a more streamlined process might be for the best. It really depends on what the new rate would be though and how it'll effect morale.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 3382
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:44 pm Reply with quote
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
TheAnimeRevolutionizer



Joined: 03 Nov 2017
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:36 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.


It really does make a big difference.

When you work with cels and paper, you're working with real medium, and if it's ink and paint, there is no room for error or any eraser that can undo mistakes with those. That requires a lot- and I mean a lot of training and time to invest in to get really skilled with, and especially when the industry pays on a per drawing basis.

Digital doesn't mean there are any less hurdles, but there is a greater amount of fixability and more forgiving area of redoing and fixing up cels and frames. Add in how consistency is greater in the output and the interval of needing new medium is essentially removed, the amount of time to create animation digitally is vastly shorter than handdrawn. And I like handdrawn animation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Яeverse



Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Posts: 780
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:58 pm Reply with quote
Anime character designs are too complex? How is that a problem, we cant have everything look simple and lacking detail. More time would make this a moot point tbh.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jdnation



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:30 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.


There are still many nuances that traditional artists are used to that aren't quite captured digitally yet. It improves as it goes.

Also it depends on what long time animators are used to. Newer, younger staff can transition to digital easier than older ones. It really comes with a whole new skillset of knowing the software, and software may not all be standardized amongst studios etc. depending on how many contract jobs you take etc.

Also, naturally, owning a proper screen tablet, especially a Cintiq is a costly investment, and I imagine many artists might have to purchase their own supplies, and affording one may not be in the budget for day to day expenses out the gate. Plus you'll want to back up your work, which means harddrives, also transferring large files, which means needing faster internet. Etc. etc.

So there are many minute complications, but they'll add up. And thus initial expenses would be high, but will save you on supplies and time in the long run.

Using a pencil and paper is still more intuitive than learning software. Not that there's that large a difference, but it's still a difference. And it's still recommended that you learn on the physical media first before heading to the digital, so you can apply those disciplines there. Both have their strengths and drawbacks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3673
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:09 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.

My understanding from the article is that those animating key and in-between frames digitally on a tablet may be expected to do much more than the line work they are only officially paid for:
Quote:
It is standard in the anime industry for key animators to be paid per cut or drawing, but by digitizing the process, they take on some of the work that would be ordinarily be handled by the compositing or finishing teams.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1004
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:40 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Anime character designs are also too complex these days, which means that it is not possible to draw animation frames quickly, especially compared to the past.


This was why the Pokemon character designs were simplified for Sun and Moon, wasn't it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yuza



Joined: 15 Jan 2017
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Яeverse wrote:
Anime character designs are too complex? How is that a problem, we cant have everything look simple and lacking detail. More time would make this a moot point tbh.


When you animate something you don't want too much detail in your design or it's harder to animate (especially for less skilled animators), and even if you do detail doesn't necessarily make it look better. Compare Goku's design in the Super anime to the Broly movie and you'll see how much a streamlined but strong design can change the animation quality. Not a perfect example comparing a TV show to a film but even Resurrection of F and Battle of The Gods have a very different feel. It's likely they'll use a design similar to Broly for the show from now on because it's just easier to work with and produces better results.

If you want to see how a design could be bad for animation look at Cell from DBZ. He has a bunch of irregularly placed spots all around his body, which means the animators have to draw that in every single frame too. It's a huge pain in the ass to draw from different perspectives. It looks cool but even the mangaka regretted designing him that way because of how hard it is to manage.

Animators getting more time isn't realistically going to happen unfortunately, and it's not the most efficient or cost-effective solution anyway. Detail doesn't necessarily make it look better either. Not every show has to be super deformed or off-model (eg. Masaaki Yuasa) but the trend toward over-designing is a practical problem as well as an artistic one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ronie Peter



Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 119
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:06 am Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.


There are two types of digital animators: those who use the tools and learn formally in a college or the like, and the webgens, who learn by watching videos of their favorite animators and try to replicate their techniques. A digital animator may want a person who simply learned a technique through tools. He would be what I call a traditionalist in digitized technique.

There is a difference in both, but in the context of efficiency, the tools themselves are much more flexible and allow for a huge jump in production. If the studios gave at least a decent place and invested in that, digital animators and websites would be making each studio unique by the way they work and engage. This video here is from an Indonesian webgen. He worked on Boruto's episode 65 and Castlevania season 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nv-2j-BMfs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
#884745
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 223
Location: Ikebukuro
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:38 am Reply with quote
TheAnimeRevolutionizer wrote:
Add in how consistency is greater in the output and the interval of needing new medium is essentially removed, the amount of time to create animation digitally is vastly shorter than handdrawn. And I like handdrawn animation.

You were right until you used that vastly inaccurate terminology.

Drawing on a tablet is drawing by hand.
You move your hands in the exact same ways you do when drawing on paper.

I know because I do both.

Ronie Peter wrote:


There are two types of digital animators: those who use the tools and learn formally in a college or the like, and the webgens, who learn by watching videos of their favorite animators and try to replicate their techniques. A digital animator may want a person who simply learned a technique through tools. He would be what I call a traditionalist in digitized technique.




The article alluded to the term "webgen" but did not explain it, so thank you for explaining.

I like Birdy, and I'm glad it's remembered for something, though I wish it would be remembered for the writing as well.

(I'm a writer who has no real interest in animation technique, but I want to someday have my stories adapted into animation and live theatre (but never live action), so I like to know the lay of the land for that reason)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
El Hermano



Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 91
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:05 am Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
This was why the Pokemon character designs were simplified for Sun and Moon, wasn't it?


If it was, they should ask for a refund. The animation took a nosedive in Sun and Moon. *thinks back to the Gaogaen VS Mega Bossgodora fight and shudders* I think their budget just got slashed, or it was a style choice since it became a comedy show instead of an actions how.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:03 am Reply with quote
El Hermano wrote:
Shay Guy wrote:
This was why the Pokemon character designs were simplified for Sun and Moon, wasn't it?


If it was, they should ask for a refund. The animation took a nosedive in Sun and Moon. *thinks back to the Gaogaen VS Mega Bossgodora fight and shudders* I think their budget just got slashed, or it was a style choice since it became a comedy show instead of an actions how.


There were no budget slashes. It was a stylistic choice partially pioneered by Iwane Masaaki (not the character designer, but a prominent Pokemon animator), who wanted to make the characters more fluid and expressive. XY had great spikes of animation, but the characters had to stay in place a lot. They made a web blog detailing how they started using new software to help with streamlining and designed the characters so they could basically give more freedom to the animators working on each episode while simultaneously speeding up the animation process so they can add more frames here and there.

I agree this hurts the animation in less-important episodes, but one thing you'll notice, especially in early episodes and important episodes, is that more is happening on the screen at once. XY gave us a lot of subtle animation, like showing us the natural way an Eivui/Eevee might twirl around and make itself comfy as it lays down on a blanket. SunMoon does this kind of thing in droves now. Quality of animation art suffers a little here and there, but the animation itself is often smooth and more expressive and constant, something most year-long series aren't able to pull off.

Personally, I'm okay with this for one series, but I do want to return to something more like XY for the next series. XY had its unfortunate dips, too (Thunder/Zapdos episode especially), but the more mature designs, combined with the focus on action, made it so exciting and fun to watch. I anticipated new episodes alongside other late-night anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
tuturuu



Joined: 03 Feb 2018
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:34 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Is animating on a tablet really such a big deal? It's not that much different from animating on paper after all, this is not like that big leap from cel animation to digital colouring and composting.


Drawing on paper is very different from drawing on a tablet. You have to remember that digitizers are simply an imitation of traditional media. It may be economically efficient, but digital drawing is never gonna be as good as traditional. Not saying that digital is bad, it's certainly good enough, but it will never be as good. In the end it's a question of whether you prefer quantity or quality.

Most people won't really notice the change from traditional storyboarding and key animation to digital, since it's gonna be gradual, but it's definitely gonna be much bigger of a leap than from cels to digital compositing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2013
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:51 pm Reply with quote
Is there a link to the full video?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Animorphimagi



Joined: 29 Oct 2015
Posts: 157
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:55 pm Reply with quote
Late post but I think it's worth mentioning

"Anime character designs are also too complex these days"


While I can think of many correct examples of this, I cant help but think about the 50% of anime with a brown haired light novel protagonist who has non-descript clothing and is nearly emotionless. And while there's some decently different looking girls in these shows, there's widespread same face within series that makes me have very little sympathy for clearly lazy designs.

The most complexly designed characters in anime are bizarrely the best looking shows even if they aren't always animated the best. I'm talking about series by Ufotable, The Promised Neverland though I suppose there wasnt tons of animation in the show, One Piece, Durarara, Konosuba, My Hero, and Jojo. I don't know why some studios can seemingly overcome problems in a long series that a 12 episode show gets plagued by within 5 episodes. I'd assume they prioritize important scenes to have the best animation and the less important scenes to at the bare minimum have great art with proper lip flaps.
It seems like in below average shows they can't even keep art consistent so of course they don't have good enough artists to keep up with the animation as well.
I just don't want simplified character designs. I'd MUCH rather almost no animation but amazing art. And before you say that's basically a manga, manga had zero sound, color, or acting. Those things matter much more to me than proper movements. Of course more movements can't be accepted in high action series. But you'd be surprised how few shows per season actually have a high amount of action scenes.
Shows this season that could get by with little to no animation:
The Promised Neverland
Kaguya-sama
Boogiepop
Quintessential quintuplets
Kakegurui
Boruto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group