Forum - View topicCan you like a fanservice show without liking fanservice?
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SonicRenegade84
 Posts: 630 Location: Atlantis! |
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One problem -- These shows are actually good. (IDK what you say, I LIKE Milky Holmes! and I did hate MM, but it redeemed itself.) Look, here's my straight out, all or nothing thing about Fanservice: Don't make it the whole show, and we're good. |
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Soundmonkey44
 Posts: 1243 |
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I belive that your rebutle to my post was a little over the top, I'm not saying the genre should die, just that it should be downplayed abit. Again I don't hate fanservice, I just personally only find it entertaining when used for comeic purposes like in the old misaki works or the manga version of Rosario+Vampire. And I have a fair Amount of spare time on the weekends sadly, not much to do in my small town, so I am aware of the good and the bad shows. ( Psychic Detective looks pretty good.).
And finally I don't think anyone should be castrated I sure as he'll wouldn't want to be, but he'll i'm a straight male and I don't really care for sexual stuff, but I'm one of those odd ducks that finds smart confident women more attractive then others. I mean heck anima women arnt even real (saldy LOL) and as for real people, heck were all ugly eventually. |
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cashballer
 Posts: 107 |
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Like egoist said, there are plenty of shows, a vast majority even, with little to no sexual fanservice. Perhaps the reason the "genre" (if it can be called that) seems so evident in popular anime is that a vast portion of the anime fanbase enjoys it, and not because it shows up too frequently? I'll add my two cents and say that for whatever reason, strange as it may be, I do tend to enjoy series with fanservice more than those without. I consider it more like icing on the cake; a cake made of storyline, character development, and other ingredients. It's clearly an exotic flavor of icing that many people aren't suited for. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't like a series any less for not including fanservice.
I suppose this is somewhat off-topic, though; unfortunately I have nothing on-topic to add, being a fanservice-crazed, perverted freak. |
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SonicRenegade84
Posts: 630 Location: Atlantis! |
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And that's the thing though. IDC if it has it, as long as it isn't the only thing your show has to offer. Sort of like Kiss X Sis.
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Soundmonkey44
Posts: 1243 |
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I agree somewhat (except for the kxs part). I mean if a show just has some casual fanservice once in a blue moon and it doesn't take away from the story, that'd fine, but if that's all show has, then it's really sort of pointless. I mean heck if the only reason your watching a show is to get turned on you might as well just watch porn. Ecchi reallyis pointless as a Genre itself, fine as an element but pointless as an overall genre.
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cashballer
Posts: 107 |
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Oh I can certainly agree with that. If a show has nothing to offer but fanservice (of a sexual nature), it might as well be hentai. I can't think of anything I've seen that I would demote to that category, though, except maybe the fourth season of Ikkitousen. Man, that was bad.
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2249 Location: Sac, Ca USA |
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I don't see how this is not "being shoved in your face." You might be confusing "shoved in your face" with "not liking a certain type of fanservice." I was taken aback by SW at first, but after a few episodes I just didn't mind anymore, though it was undeniably there constantly. HSotD on the other hand; yuck. I found nothing appealing and everything appalling about panty-shots, boob-grabs, and provocatively posed girls while they're screaming in terror and pain, being killed brutally. In all likeness, I was grossed out by Queen's Blade's squirting breasts and close up pants-peeing. If I remember correctly, Ikki Tousen's 1st season had a close up pants peeing scene as well, and I found it just as gross (though there were several other much greater reasons why I loathe that show). For me, I do enjoy it when it's done for laughs, or if there are scenes where one character is attempting to seduce another or a genuine romantic love scene like in Rumbling Hearts. Though RH is probably a bad example as the particular scene I'm thinking of actually helps drive the plot and characterization forward.
Okay, just to clarify; you're mentioning KissXSiss as an example of a show that only has gratuitous fanservice to offer, right? Honestly, I think many people focus too much on fanservice, mainly those who dislike it. I mean, the next time a show like Strike Witches or Girls Bravo shows up on a Shelf-Life or on a preview guide, count how many short hate-filled comments about said shows spring up in the talkback. Many; some by people who for some reason or another couldn't tell it was going to be "that kind of show" and some who probably never even watched any of it. Sometimes -definitely not all the time- a show with moderate to high levels of fanservice does have a decent plot and characterization, but all that gets ignored because of the fanservice and they write it off as 'nothing but wank material.' Yes, they contain wank-material, but they do offer more than that. I remember on an ANNCast, Zac was talking about the fanservice-likers behaving like they have a soap-box, but I've never seen that personally (I only hang out on these forums), what I see (on these forums anyways) is the other-side of the debate soap-boxing. I don't see what other reason someone would have to go into a talkback for Strike Witches and bitch about fanservice for 1 to 3 sentences and then leave other than to soap-box. People seem to think that its some kind of socially damning thing to like an anime that has frequent naughty-shots and they must proclaim their stance every chance they get to save themselves. Well guess what guys, anime in general is a socially damning thing. You're already screwed, why not just take the plunge? 
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SonicRenegade84
Posts: 630 Location: Atlantis! |
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Honestly, you said everything I was trying to say. I just said it in a wrong way. And yes, i'm using KXS as an example of something that is only fanservice. |
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Darth Joker
Posts: 84 |
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This thread appears to have grown into a broader discussion about fanservice in general, dominated largely by anime fans who love fanservice.
I see the value in a broader discussion about fanservice, but I also see a lot of common misconceptions about people who dislike fanservice in anime. It is these misconceptions that I wish to address with this post with a few key points. 1. There's something that I call the Pervert/Prude false dichotomy. In other words, many animes fans (particularly fans of fanservice in anime) seem to perceive human sexuality as being of a binary nature - either outright pervert, or complete prude. Hence, if a viewer objects to any sort of sexual fanservice within any kind of context, they tend to be (usually wrongly) cast into the "prude" category. The fact is that human sexuality is much more complex than that, and many (if not most) humans are not at either the pervert extreme, or the prude extreme. Many people who find certain types of sexual imagery detestable or disgusting also find other types of sexual imagery quite titillating or enjoyable. Some examples of commonly disliked sexual imagery are depictions of rape, incest, and/or pedophilia. Numerous people, with perfectly healthy sex drives and sex lives, find these three things repulsive and/or morally repugnant. This does not make them prudish. For a man like this, it does not make him less of a man. Unfortunately, much of modern anime fanservice falls under one of those three categories (though within an animated context, of course), or at least skirts the edges of them (such as fanservice involving a teenage female character who is drawn in a manner that makes her look pre-teen). Now, with this in mind, I'll gladly state that I find the character design of Major Motoko Kusanagi (of Ghost in the Shell) very sexually appealing. But that is because she is a full-bodied woman, who is drawn as such, and who carries her sexuality in a natural way that goes seamlessly with the anime's story. One thing I'd like to see more of in anime is sexy adult female characters. If there was more of that, and less fanservice that basically amounts to animated child pornography (lets be frank and open here), I'd have much less of an issue of it. However, that also has to do with... 2) People who dislike fanservice aren't necessarily against it strictly as a matter of personal taste. For many who dislike fanservice, they dislike it because it can be a major obstacle to growing the anime fandom. I'm going to be blunt here - many potential anime watchers (people who would enjoy Miyazaki films, for example) may find much of anime fanservice to be juvenile, 'fratboy' sort of stuff. Just like toilet humor isn't for everyone, nor is anime fanservice. Speaking personally, I've always been a lover of animation in general, since my days of watching 80s cartoons while growing up. I think that the animation medium has certain strengths as an entertainment and visual arts medium, and with American-made animation lately falling almost strictly within the confines of comedy, I view anime as being the current standard-bearer of this medium. Anime has demonstrated, numerous times, that the animated medium can very effectively tell serious, dramatic, dark, philosophical storylines. Grave of the Fireflies, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Ghost in the Shell, countless Miyazaki works; these all show how anime can tell good drama and suspense and thematically-driven works just as well as any live-action show can. Anime has shown that it can have real literary worth. There's really no reason why animation shouldn't be as accepted as any other entertainment medium. However, I do think that there is a commonly held perception that modern anime is nothing but "animated porn", and that this serves as a major limiting factor for gaining greater acceptance for anime, and hence greater acceptance for animation in general. When fanservice-driven animes get a lot of attention within the fandom, and in promotional materials, this only serves to reinforce this commonly held perception of anime. Now with this in mind... 3) Even when fanservice is only a small part of an episode, this nonetheless tends to be what gets talked about a lot in episode discussions (on other boards than this one). I imagine that any lurker that comes across such a discussion might very well conclude that this show is all about the fanservice, feeding even more into the commonly held perception of anime being "animated porn" and little else. I even recall there being a Pokemon episode, of all things, with a split-second panty shot of a female character. In an episode review thread for that episode, this was all that many posters wanted to talk about. It can be disheartening for people who want to talk about actual plot development, character development, and the episode as a whole, to see pages upon pages of posters fixated entirely on a very brief fanservice bit. With this in mind, I actually have much less of a problem with a Ladies vs. Butlers or a Queen's Blade, that are very upfront and obvious about what they're selling, than I have with, say, random panty shots in Shakugan no Shana. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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I'm sorry, but I have to call you out here. Much of modern anime DOES not fall under the categories of rape, incest and/or pedo as representations of "fanservice". Unless your entire anime viewing is structured around hentai, I really don't see how "much of" modern anime displays these elements as "fanservice." MOST of them, at worst, fall under your "skirt the edge" category, not "at least". So yes, those youngish female characters who get panty shots and the like are as bad as it gets, and judging by the shows discussed in here, only a select few of them fall under that category (Strike Witches, for instance). But honestly, most fanservice is simply boob and panty shots. I really don't see where this rape and incest stuff you listed is in abundance. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 8017 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I don't know man, I can definitely see him having a perfectly valid case for pedophila (read as loli) shows and incest shows. This season has a few loli shows and shows with brother/sister love though it's mostly for comedy's sake or undertones but still is present.
Not the rape though, I can't really see that. |
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Darth Joker
Posts: 84 |
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Exactly. That's what I'm getting at, yes. Some supporters of anime fanservice act like we're just talking about good basic sex appeal - like some hot Hollywood starlet or a steamy sex scene (between consenting adults or consenting late teens) in a movie. And yeah, for that sort of material, just about any man will find it sexually arousing. But a large chunk of anime fanservice centers around female characters that either are, or look, like a person below the age of consent. And then we move out of good basic sex appeal that just about anybody will see, and into a very specific fetish that a lot of people simply don't have (and find squicky, if anything). For example, I frankly do not get turned on at seeing 9 year old Nanoha Takamachi in her panties. But Striker S young adult Nanoha... that's a different story. 
Long story short, it's not sex appeal in anime, per se, that a lot of critics of anime fanservice have an issue with. It's the very specific type of fetish that this anime fanservice often aims for. You have more sex appeal centering around adult/late teen women, and less centering around girls that look like they're just starting junior high (or even younger than that), and a lot of the criticism of anime fanservice would instantly disappear.
Ok, maybe I should have left rape out. I mainly included it because of the popularity of tentacle rape. But that's probably a minor enough thing to drop it entirely. I'll concede this to you. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6921 Location: Kazune City |
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Kruszer
Posts: 8017 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Yeah, it's lower than our standard 18 in some countries, Japan included I think. Though, I'm on the same page. There's a lot of sexualization of youngish (lets say middle school aged) girls going on ...well more often anyway, that I'm not really into. As someone who likes fanservice, I'm not really down with that type of stuff. For instance Strike Witches and Sky Girls were not to my tastes.
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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You and me both buddy. However as someone who does not typically shy away from fanservice shows I can say that such "loli" fanservice is in the minority when compared with other more mature fanservice. Because lets face it the rabid evangelism of alot of Anime fans has turned alot of people against us. People love to hate anime these days and they pick up on shows like Kodomo no Jikan and Aki Sora and try to represent them as some kind of Industry standard. This is not the case. If anime is to be taken as just another "medium" then we should compare live action? how many live action movies have been made with incest and/or rape as heavy themes? I would bet my life savings you could find at least 50 titles within the space of a day. Obviously not child sexualisation as that would be blatantly illegal. But almost no media institution is free of this tendency to push the boundaries of the acceptable. There is an idea in society at the moment that idea is "it is wrong/inherently perverse to be attracted to animated characters." This is undeniable, it is also stupid and incorrect. That being said I think you make some very good points Darth Joker. I agree that human sexuality is far more grey area than the simple normal/pervert flipswitch everyone seems to pretend exists. I also agree that fanservice shows dont do much for the prestige of Anime. However this is somewhat unavoidable. Live action shows are readily divided into genres with material that is basically softcore porn considered as an entirely seperate entity artistically to more prestigious work. However for some reason Anime has become a catch all and everything gets tarred with the lowest common denominator brush. I would put it to you that what is neccessary is not to fight fanservice. As one might as well fight to keep the sun from rising. But instead urge Anime companies to promote their more artistically sound work. And to those curious about anime for gods sake dont point them straight at something like "ladies vs butlers" no matter how funny and awesome it was  .
However despite what i just said i stand by my conviction that western society. American society especially is extremely prudish. Men these days are berated for their natural drives until they baa like sheep the words women want to hear and learn to carefully disguise their sex drives under layers and layers of b*llsh*t. Oh dont get me wrong I don't doubt that there was a time when women got the short end of the stick. But that time is long gone. Men are now the oppressed sex. And we have come to believe that sexuality has no place in art or anything refined. That it is a base thing best confined to something we dirtily label "pornography". For gods sake people it is a function of your body. And one far less disgusting than what we do in the lavatory every day. Though this may seem off topic to some I would take a short paragraph to explain why it is not. The op asked "can one enjoy a show with fanservice if one does not like fanservice" This can be reread as "does fanservice ruin a show" and I believe I have answered that to the best of my ability. And my answer is I don't think it has to. But if you subscribe to the mindset that sexual material is filthy, which i believe to be silly then yes it can ruin youre experience. And believe it or not folks this applies to both men and women. I often laugh sometimes when i see my fellow men go "uuurgh" when you see some guys butt on some live action thing or even at some scene of 2 guys kissing. I mean wtf its not as if youre doing it. And its hardly anything you haven't seen in a gym locker (not the kissing ofc but you get my meaning). I mean when was the last time you saw all the boys run out of the locker room to barf on the pavement because they where overcome by the sight of all those unencumbered schlongs. The same should be true for women too stop freaking out whenever you see an uncovered pair of boobies. It's not the holy grail for crying out loud .
Still it probably boils down to this. Most women are afraid of men. And I mean this as no insult. Theres alot to be afraid off we have an aggressive feral sex drive inherited from our ancestors. Who in the days of the stone age pretty much went around raping every woman they could get their hands on. Why do you think rape even happens for gods sake? It's something a man must always control. However control does not erase it's presence. Women probably know that. There is also the nontrivial matters of pregnancy and std's. Women are afraid of sex and to an extent western media panders to this fear with lots of sensitive well groomed male leads who bear as much resemblance to a real male as chocolate ice cream does to a fusion reactor. Or for that matter female fanservice characters to a real woman. And western men have got it into their heads that this is what men should be. Don't get me wrong there is every place in the world for grooming and sensitivity. But men have other far more aggressive drives as well. And if we even admit they exist. We are demonised. So yeah i know i hold a rather unconventional opinion on the matter. But for me the answer is still an overwhelming yes you can enjoy any show that has something you personally enjoy in it. You just have to unlearn all the indoctrination telling you to be offended by the other stuff. To wrap up i will make my own position clear. - Loli fanservice : Grosses me out. But id far rather they where making this than child porn and if it keeps even one person from actually touching a real child it's done it's job. I don't think anyone would suddenly become a pedo because of watching this. I certainly haven't. It would have to be in you from the start. Child pornography is rightly illegal because it hurts children. Loli fanservice hurts no one and maybe keeps some people burdened both by this tendency and a concience out of trouble. So while I agree it aint great pr for the industry i don't excactly dissaprove of it either. I mean geez i almost admire their balls for making it. |
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