Forum - View topicWhat makes a good protagonist?
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Ignatz
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Yeah, but their ideologies are completely opposite. I have no idea how it is possible to like both of them. 
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4286 |
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That's non-hero, not anti-hero. If Shinji was an anti-hero, he would have taken his uppers to task rather than mope and do nothing, moving up to do what they told him while moping. The Reboot Shinji is a bit different {"He did something!" was my reaction to the first one} but since I haven't seen the third one but I've heard some things, I won't comment on them. Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma, now there's an anti-hero. |
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danilo07
 Posts: 1580 |
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I find the entire discussion about Light to be absurd.How can anyone think that a system, which relies upon mortal and arrogant teenager passing down judgements to every being on Earth, can be good?Not only would he have killed hordes of innocent people in the process(our own system that takes time to consider people's involvement in criminal activities and it frequently makes mistakes about it ,I wonder Light would fare in that same position),not only would it impossible for him to punish most of the humans on planet Earth(your Google skills may be good,but they aren't that good) but when he would eventually die ,everything would return to it's previous state.Let's say that Light somehow manages to create a world peace and then he dies.The notebook would return to it's original owner,there would be no one to play God and everybody would return to performing criminal activities again.
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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It depends what the author wants to achieve. I agree with jl07045 that a character that is a self-insert can be good if the work focuses on something else. Series that have more reflective character can get away with a protagonist who is more of a observer and doesn’t necessarily actively shape the story. Kino from Kino no Tabi is a good example, as the story wants to make its viewers think rather than focus on colorful adventures and take them on a rollercoaster. This is difficult, because the author needs to come up with something worth thinking about.
In an action or adventure story it’s good to have an active protagonist (I mean, a protagonist who shapes the story). A reactive protagonist, one who only responds to what happens to him or around him, or worse, one who does nothing, is simply boring. The protagonist should be intrinsic to the story, not someone who seems to be outside of it. She/he shouldn't feel like a background character. For instance: Ahiru from Princess Tutu is a great example of an active main character. Her desire to return Mytho’s heart is what shapes the story. The story unfolds because of her, not in spite of her. Last edited by Aylinn on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Antihero is by definition someone who the audience considers worse than themselves not better - the opposite of hero. By that definition Shinji is very much an antihero even if he doesn't do anything. Which is not true, because, as you mentioned three words later, he actually did something - what he was told to do. His decision to base his self-identity in roles that others impose on him is a huge part of what Anno finds wrong. So people who criticize him for being passive are missing the whole goddamn point. |
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Cam0
 Posts: 4970 |
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That's because Light is as sane as Adolf Hitler was, meaning that he is sort of an arguable case. He didn't think that far ahead and he was completely blinded by his ideals. He got progressively worse to the point that he would do anything to make sure that the criminals kept dying. I don't think he wanted to create world peace, he wanted to punish criminals in a way he thought was just. I actually take some of that back, Hitler was batshit crazy. Light is similar in a way that they both got progressively worse. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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*sigh* Stop getting hung up on this notion of incompatible ideologies between two characters implying that they should be incompatible in a viewer. If you don't understand how anyone could like a pacifist in a show about peace and love while also liking a murderer in a show about death and evil, then pal . . . you don't want me to finish that sentence. Anyway, just drop the whole Light thing, okay? Like I said before, if you wanna know why I like Light then read the old threads where I explain my reasons. |
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Knoepfchen
 Posts: 698 |
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To me, Neon Genesis Evangelion has always had some of the best and most thoughtful constructed characters out there. Shinji, Asuka, and Misato especially. They are great because they feel completely organic to me, something I consider to be very important. More on that later.
Sure, I can root for the cool, snarky guy. It helps that he's usually the prettiest of the lot. Give him a nice little trauma, the right outfit and character design, and I'm set. That doesn't mean I find him particularly interesting, it's just a stereotype that appeals to me. I'm well aware of that, and that's fine. Not all my entertainment has to be thought provoking or challenging. What is interesting for me to watch is a protagonist starting at a certain emotional level, being put through the motions by the story of his show, and, most of all, having decisions forced upon him/her that are impossible to make and that yet have to be made. I want to watch them having to deal with the consequences of their decisions/ideals/choices, I want to see them forced to change or proving themselves unable to do so - it doesn't really matter, one is not more interesting to me than the other. Most heroic sacrifices bore me, on the other hand - no consequences, at least not for the one that dies. Well, except for dying, but that's not particularly interesting by itself. A protagonist that masters all these challenges without breaking a sweat isn't particularly interesting. He might still be entertaining for being all bad ass, but that can get old quite fast. That's why I consider a protagonist that's just too perfect to be not that interesting. They don't have to be deeply flawed, either, just force them to face the consequences of their actions and let it develop organically. I would say the setting and story play a huge part in whether a protagonist works or can be considered "good". Shinji is the perfect protagonist for his show. I never get it when people complain about him being too whiny. I always thought he was very well written, completely organic and believable in all his actions and choices (and the frequent lack of those, too). The same goes for Asuka and Misato. Light Yagami was an excellent protagonist. Not particularly interesting, as there's very little character development to be found in this show, which is clear from the start. But his is a different show and setting and he serves those perfectly well, being highly entertaining while doing so. Which proves a good protagonist does not necessarily have to be a deeply complex, highly interesting character. It depends on the story. Vash is a much more interesting character than Light. I also think he is much more layered and complex than most fans of the show give him credit for, more so in the manga, but you can see hints of it in the anime as well. He's not a better protagonist than Light, though, just because he's more interesting. Their shows just ask very different questions and need different characters to tell their story. So, while an interesting protagonist might be a plus, I don't think they need to be interesting in order to be called a good protagonist. Do they serve the story? Does the story need this character to be told in the way it wants to be told? Do they act organically around other characters, within their story and setting, and in regard to their own beliefs and ideals (or lack thereof)? Great. Being interesting is more of a plus than a necessity, I think. But then, I might be more of a story and storytelling than character focused viewer most of the time, so... |
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meiam
Posts: 3674 |
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About Light
http://what-if.xkcd.com/27/ Not excusing what he did, but depending on your value it's pretty easy to support him. Personally I don't think he was necessarily wrong, but crime is very low and ultimately a very small concern, the biggest impact from his action would probably be economic has the crime rate would dramatically fall entire industry would be destroyed (cop, insurance, security, weapon manufacturing although I'm pretty cool with the last one disappearing), but no new industry would rise to replace them, at least not on the same scale. Has always, what you consider good and evil will greatly vary depending on your value. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I don’t know Kirito, but the problem with competent characters, as I noticed, is that it is more difficult to come up with a situation that is challenging to them. It’s easier to write a story where characters are incompetent, which makes basically almost everything challenging to them. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I like competent characters, like Shiroe from Log Horizon or heck, Shinichi from Outbreak Company.
The problem with Kirito was that he wasn't competent; all his success was due to massive plot armour and being the author's pet. spoiler[Knowing how the game worked? Nothing to do with any innate skills, he just relied on his knowledge from being a beater. Being able to solo when everyone else joined guilds? Plot armour. Dual-wielding and Star Burst Stream? That was flat-out given to him for no real reason other than he supposedly caught Kayaba's eye. The help he got from Yui? He and Asuna were apparently the most perfect people in the entire game so Yui just decided to reveal herself to them. Coming back from the dead? Completely unexplained BS. Him being strong in the second half? Kayaba allowing him to carry over his stats. Leafa helping him? Ridiculous co-incidence formed through him having to attract all the girls and be the centre of attention. Defeating Villain-kun? Kayaba again, this time handing him the admin access codes rather than anything Kirito actually did.] And so on and so forth. Claiming that Kirito was too competent and that's why people hate him has to be the worst joke I've ever heard in my entire life. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13278 |
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I don't think you're giving Kirito enough credit.
He does so well in the game because he's just that damn good at video games. He got spoiler[dual weilding because he had the fastest reaction time of all the players]. The coming back from spoiler[the dead (though he still 'died') was just him willing himself to not die long enough to attack Heathcliff.] In the second half spoiler[Kayaba isn't the one who let him carry over his stats. Since ALO was built off SAO, it misread Kirito's SAO save file as one for ALO.] Meeting Leafa spoiler[wasn't explained in the show, but I hear it was basically due to an IP conflict]. At the end spoiler[Kayaba allowed for Kirito to take away Sugou's admin rights, but Kirito still beat Sugou on his own (even giving Sugou the strongest sword in the game first). Beat him IRL too.] There was plenty Kirito did and earned through his own talents and not just plot convenience. Granted there were plenty of plot conveniences like spoiler[all that money he suddenly had in ALO.] But there'll always be elements of any work that happen just because the protagonist is the protagonist. If the master detective didn't just happen to find a critical piece of evidence that the murderer just happened to carelessly leave behind, the mystery couldn't be solved. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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If anything, I gave him too much credit.
This spiel is always trotted out when defending bad protagonists, as if it is a Get out of Jail Free card. Of course protagonists are blessed in many ways that other characters aren't. They have to be powerful and relevant to the plot, they are almost certainly guaranteed to survive to the final episode, and so on. However, they are still expected to earn their victories and spoils rather than just having such things handed to them.
He was simply given spoiler[his reaction times because the author had to come up with some BS reason for him to get those abilities. We never actually see any evidence of him having particularly fast reaction times - you know, foreshadowing (or heck, even evidence afterwards) - we are simply told that he got the abilities because of them. That's extremely lazy storytelling.]
Funny how of the ten thousand people in the game, only spoiler[the Chosen Ones - Kirito and Asuna - can defy a microwave to the brain through sheer willpower? And remember, Asuna actually properly died more thoroughly and for longer than Kirito.] Just look at what you are saying. spoiler[Overcome game mechanics and death by willpower alone, and it only applies to the two heroes? It's bloody ridiculous.]
It was initially spoiler[incorrectly blamed on game compatibility since both Kirito and Yui were unaware of Kayaba still being alive.]
First I've heard of this. Do you have any actual proof?
Villain-kun had never spoiler[played the game properly before and had untrained motor skills, and had suffered a powerful psychological and emotional blow that made him blind with fury. Even with a strong sword it didn't matter; practically anyone (even inexperienced players) could have defeated him at that point.] |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13278 |
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And Kirito did that. He fought through both SAO and ALO and while he did get some help, it was through his own will that he stood and pushed forward. It's a slippery slope when you bring the author into it. Once you do, where do you stop? All things happen because the author writes it that way. I could say that it was total bullshit that Vash spoiler[beat Knives because the writers wrote it so Wolfwood's cross gun just magically happened to be right next to Vash when he needed it. And he could suddenly hear dead people.] Does that invalidate Vash's victory? I always look for in-universe explanations for everything first (if I care to think about it at all) before I start blaming the author for stuff.
It's the power of love, man! Also spoiler[they only overcame the paralysis and delayed the death animation. Their brains likely didn't get fried because Kayaba let them live since they had surpassed his system like he was hoping some one would.]
I just looked and at no point did spoiler[Kayaba say he's the one that let Kirito keep his stats. So the initial claim of game compatibility is unchallenged.]
No, since the fan translations got taken down when the novels were licensed. But like I said, that's what I heard. Home networks only have one IP address so it's not hard to believe the game mistook Kazuto and Suguha as being the same person. I bet ALO is full of such glitches considering its main purpose wasn't being a fully functioning MMO. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3822 |
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