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Hey, Answerman! DMCA MSRP WTF


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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 14432
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:52 am Reply with quote
I thought Azumanga sort of disappointed, and that the real audience here is for Yotsuba. As for Minami-ke, I'm guessing the reason it hasn't gotten picked up is because it doesn't stand out well here. Though it's probably not on CR because the Japanese licensor would rather sell off the rights for home video. As for those un-dubbed shows, if you like 'em, and haven't seen them legally already, you at least ought to be buyin' whatever's in R1 as pay back-unless the release is screwed up, of course.
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 4258
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:54 am Reply with quote
Count me in as someone else who wants Minami-ke licensed rather badly, at least the first season, produced by quality moé anime studio Studio Doumu (Strawberry Marshmallow).

I find what separates Minami-ke from the rest of the pack when it comes to slice-of-life comedies about school girls is that there actually is a decent-sized cast of wacky supporting characters, especially Chiaki's gender-confused classmates Touma Minami (a boyish girl raised by her brothers) and Makoto/Mako-chan (a boy who is forced to dress like a girl to get close to Chiaki's oldest sister Haruka). Also, there's Haruka's narcissistic classmate Hosaka with his vivid Haruka-centered daydreams. And you gotta love all the "serious business" Bible Black faces that the girls switch to whenever s**t is about to get "real", though those are only found in the first season.
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Daemonblue



Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 701
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:46 am Reply with quote
I believe the DMCA question can kinda be answered here http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/06/youtube-wins-summary-judgment-viacom-dmca

Basically, unless the copyright owners specifically say they want certain content removed, then the company doesn't have to remove the content unless they expressly know which ones infringe copyright, which can be kinda hard to prove. That said Viacom is trying to appeal (since it is a very recent decision) though considering they were uploading videos to youtube from one department and then having them removed by their legal department, it doesn't look too favorable for them.

That said, anyone that has questions about stuff like this (and copyright law in general) should read up about it since there's a ton of stuff happening that can affect copyright in a lot of serious ways, some good, but mostly bad sadly.
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teh*darkness



Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 901
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:02 am Reply with quote
In regards to Hana and Kirsten's "Hey, Answerfans" responses, as I've seen many times from people in countries that have no, or a small, market for manga, my question is, "Why do you feel you have a right to read manga?" I don't get how they can excuse it, even if they claim they would buy it if it was in their language and meant it. This attitude is pure entitlement and it makes me sick everytime I see someone use this argument. No one has a "right" to read manga. Just because you can't buy it doesn't mean you get to go online and read it for free until you can. JUST GO WITHOUT IT. You're not going to die from not reading manga, or not watching anime. Find something else to do with your time. Go hang out with friends, make new friends, play in the park, start a band, learn to play an instrument, learn to paint or draw, be a mentor to younger kids, volunteer with a charitable organization, etc, etc, et-f*cking-cetera...

Manga and anime are not needed to continue living. There is no excuse, NONE, for illegaly partaking of them online. Even those of us who buy what we get online shouldn't be doing it... but at least we don't claim there is a "need for it".
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aereus



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 531
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:20 am Reply with quote
Knowing English as a second language opens up a large wealth of entertainment that people from English-speaking countries take for granted IMHO. Imagine living in industrialized nations where English isn't the main language like say, Brazil. The viability of nearly everything but the Big3 and a few other titles for licensing is small. (My apologies if the market is actually good there)

So your options are to import, or never get access to it. And depending on the country, $10US per volume might be 2-3x more expensive or more than local books. Plus international shipping which runs another $20+. If there is no prospect for it showing up in the local market, then I say no harm no foul, since there is no lost revenue.
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:53 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I saw fansubs of it crop up, even though it was available on Crunchyroll for everyone TWO HOURS after broadcast. Either some people are really impatient, or stupid.
Or don't want streams. Or would rather watch something that hasn't been encoded by blind ape. Or refuse to muck about with DRMed video. Et cetera.

I'm glad someone mentioned Baen Books, but it should also be mentioned that not only do Baen make their existing books available for free to download, they also make available the unedited manuscripts of books yet to be published!
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:01 am Reply with quote
teh*darkness wrote:
Go hang out with friends, make new friends, play in the park, start a band, learn to play an instrument, learn to paint or draw, be a mentor to younger kids, volunteer with a charitable organization, etc, etc, et-f*cking-cetera...

Distancing the fans from anime/manga won't help at all. True, it's not in their rights to watch an anime. But what good is it to tell them to not read/watch illegal versions when legal ones aren't available? What if one day a company tries to sprout in that region, yet the fans have disappeared since they found other activities. I mean, I used to love MMORPG, but after taking a long break I simply didn't care about it anymore, and I'd say if I ever learnt to live without anime again I'd do the same with it.

aereus wrote:
Imagine living in industrialized nations where English isn't the main language like say, Brazil.

I don't think it's really bad over there, thanks to famous shonen anime. There are worse examples out there, where a fair number of fans exist, yet no availability whatsoever. But yeah, it's not nearly as good as say, UK or Australia (since it's rather easy to buy from sites like Rightstuf, and region-free players are extremely cheap), since importing from there isn't easy or cheap. Besides given its size and amount of underdeveloped areas I'd say deliveries within that country must cost a fortune.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:09 am Reply with quote
Brian wrote:
Bittorrent sites and streaming sites have simply erased the word "ISP" from Title II of the DMCA and happily re-wrote whatever they wanted in their own heads to have the language suit their own needs.

Brian, you're only giving partial information and that's not really fair to your readers. Luckily, I'm here to help.

While Title II is accurate for ISPs, Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act includes owners of websites. Yep, see how complicated this is?

You see, first we have Copyright law, which enables users to have some control over their content. This was the foundation for the "add-on" law of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act which stripped users of those rights.

The DMCA uses sections from the CDA, and it's these combination of laws which become difficult for people to understand.

Since 1998 (the passing of the CDA), courts have recognized that "indecent content" isn't just limited to pornography (this element of the section was shot down due to First Amendment violation) and included copyright material.

Many cases have been won in favor of site owners, because the law established they were not the ones breaking the law. There are many cases to list, so use Google to read up on them.

This is how Viacom lost to Google. The "DMCA Section 230" is actually an inaccurate phrase because there is no Section 230 in the DMCA, so it's just easier to say this than "DMCA Title II and CDA Section 230 and Copyright Law".

Listen folks, I fully understand you're angry at these sites, but emotions don't make changes. While these publishers will have a bitch of a time shutting these sites down, they do have a better option in going after those who upload the content.

It is illegal for a site owner to refuse a subpoena for user data and claim "Safe Harbors". In other words, if they refuse, they lose their shield and can become one of the defendants.

The law is balanced, but it's also incredibly harsh. The courts have had a tough time trying to be fair, so the fallout is sites like OneManga, who can flourish until another court of law states otherwise.

Quote:
And while we're at it, how can angry fans like me go after these places?

I disagree with Brian's advice. Content owners already know about these sites, so don't play Captain Obvious. Instead, tell these content owners what you'd like to see on their site when the (finally) get around to making it.

Then, when these content owners do get their sites up, tell your friends. Tell everyone. Make people aware there's a better place to get it (hopefully).

But what ever you do, don't go around screaming "But think of the artists!" I've been in the web business for over 20 years and the first thing I'll attest to is users are the greediest while spouting how others are more greedy.

It's astounding how people don't see themselves as being greedy and they'll always find ways to justify their actions. They don't give a damn about salaries, food on the table, or what's "right". All they want is their stuff.

That's why it's more important to get these distributors off their asses and create competing websites which offer much, much, much more than those pirate sites. They also need to find ways to capitalize on these users.

Without this, they're fighting a losing battle, upsetting people just like you, and wasting countless dollars they really don't have to spend.

All businesses are based on competition, but somewhere alone the line, the new rule "Don't innovate! Litigate!" has taken over, and the ultimate loser is the consumer.

That's more damning than any pirate site out there and it's about time some of these companies get back to customer service.

That's my two cents, for whatever it's worth.
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 586
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:29 am Reply with quote
I can relate to the flake. About half the anime shows that aired on TV here never finished, and when you've dedicated the time to a show you like to see it all. It is possible to download fansubs for the final season off YouTube though if you really want to see the end of GX.

The fact that GX never finished is one reason I never got into 5Ds; I didn't want to run into the same problem. That and a "two-minute" timed duel that lasted ten minutes long.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:01 am Reply with quote
PJ I think Brain's hitting the nail on the head here, if you want innovation why haven't you gone out and done it yet? Oh yeah that's right you and others like you don't want to take on the costs and risks for your "great" ideas, and then you wonder why change is slow in coming, because you are not changing, waiting for others to change for you.

As to customer service knock the anime/manga industry are relatively open in comparison to other sectors, willing to go to several conventions to directly interact with their fanbase and answering questions, even coming here and other similar sites to answer what questions they can, and have answered some of yours if you would just take the time to actually listen, instead of being impatient and asking "Why haven't you changed yet?" read" Why aren't you tqaking on this additional risk that could break you yet?"

Remember it took a legitimate internet radio site for free music 10 years to become profitable, you act as if these aggregation sites would be doing them a favor but they are not, even if they (manga artists/piblishers) do (and will) put up an internet based manga/anime system you cannot compete with a player that is not playing by the rules, in sports they are kicked out, in politics asked to resign/forced out of office, in business shut down and fined, what gives these site a free pass? It becomes worse in that your not competing against someone who has their own creative content that is drawing away your customers, it's someone using your own work to draw customers away from you, one is the right way to show them your idea can work, the other one is horribly wrong, as you will struggle against a copy of yourself who doesn't do anything for you.

So PJ you need to temper your Greed there before it consumes you. But I'm sure I told you that before.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1521
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:02 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
teh*darkness wrote:
Go hang out with friends, make new friends, play in the park, start a band, learn to play an instrument, learn to paint or draw, be a mentor to younger kids, volunteer with a charitable organization, etc, etc, et-f*cking-cetera...

Distancing the fans from anime/manga won't help at all. True, it's not in their rights to watch an anime. But what good is it to tell them to not read/watch illegal versions when legal ones aren't available? What if one day a company tries to sprout in that region, yet the fans have disappeared since they found other activities. I mean, I used to love MMORPG, but after taking a long break I simply didn't care about it anymore, and I'd say if I ever learnt to live without anime again I'd do the same with it.


There is always the chance of new fans popping up to replace the old ones who have gone. Not to mention a decent size advertising can go a long way in attracting more new fans that there were old fans who saw it before.
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Takeyo



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 736
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:39 am Reply with quote
I'm going to sidestep Brian's interpretation of the DMCA and safe harbor clause and just say that I, too, am disappointed that Minami-ke (which had 3 seasons, not 4 -- Betsubara was a 1-episode OVA) hasn't been licensed. I'd even buy the later seasons when the animation was inexplicably given to Asread, who chose to take a poo all over the character designs. >.<

Brian wrote:
I know some Lebanese terrorists who could probably help with your Flux Capacitor, Josh:

Libyans, Brian. Libyans. Nerd fail. Razz


Last edited by Takeyo on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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KEY_Amazed



Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:40 am Reply with quote
Yes, I love anime. Yes, I do watch anime on those streaming sites. However, what do you expect people to do? DVD prices are outragous, and I don't make enough money to buy all the DVDs of the shows I like. I'm a huge anime fan, and Im not going to limit my joys in life because of money either. When I do get the ever so rare oppertunity to buy anime, you can bet that I'm online or at the store, purchasing the DVDs of a show I like. I'd absolutely love to support all my favorite shows, but the oppertunity just isn't there.

Also, I'm not one to spend 40$ on a DVD box set of a show I don't know about either. I might like it, but the chances are that I might not, so that is 40$ down the drain. If I stream it and find it to my liking, I'll consider purchasing it in the future.

I kick myself whenever I go to a streaming site, because I know I'm just hurting the industry doing it, but the oppertunities to support the industry just arent there often enough.
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hissatsu01



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 953
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:56 am Reply with quote
KEY_Amazed wrote:
Yes, I love anime. Yes, I do watch anime on those streaming sites. However, what do you expect people to do? DVD prices are outragous, and I don't make enough money to buy all the DVDs of the shows I like.


Yes, prices lower than ever are certainly "outragous." They should sell things at a loss just so you could afford to buy them.
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Gilles Poitras



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 429
Location: Oakland California
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:00 am Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:


I disagree with Brian's advice. Content owners already know about these sites, so don't play Captain Obvious.


Actually they often don't. I have been corresponding with several companies on this for the last few years and they do depend on fans reporting sites. They just don't have the staff to do much searching on their own. Sure odds are they know about some, but your search for recent obscure to the US industry titles easily could turn something up.

I always check to see if is such sites have any stuff from Ghibli and then report them to Disney. Disney has the resources to go after such sites hard, unlike small distributors without a large legal team.

On the DMCA, the current regulations based on the act prohibit ripping of DVD discs with a very few exceptions for research and education.

For the text of the act see:

http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/pl105-304.pdf

Edit: By legal exemptions for ripping I mean small portions of a disc, usually a few minutes.


Last edited by Gilles Poitras on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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