Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Group A-25
Hakuoro, Utawarerumono vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise Kenshin Both are strong heroes, but Kenshin has him beat in spades. Kenshin has it all -- he's dedicated, honorable, and defined by his quest for atonement. The way he treats the burden contrasts differently than many other heroes in this tournament, and that's commendable. Group A-26 Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster vs. Clare, Claymore Clare Dr. Tenma has the noblest of intention and he has a heart of goal, but when push comes to shoves he proves more than once that he cannot handle the pressure. He dedicated his whole life and obsessed over one goal. spoiler[ killing Johan ] and doesn't manage to do it even when it's handed to him on a platter. On one hand you can see this failure as a result of him adhering to his principles under all circumstances. However, personally, I see a conflicted man. Vash, a man with principles not to different than Tenma, faces a similar circumstance and handled the way, I would imagine a true hero would. Choosing to not spoiler[ kill Johan] is not just minor mistake in my eyes, but proof that his sense of morality is so rigidly defined that it prevents him from occasionally doing what it is necessary when it counts. I would be lying if I said Tenma never accomplished any good during the series, but unfortunately it is also that he spoiler[ fails in his end goal. His end goal was not only proven to be accomplishable, but the opportunity to finish the deed was handed to him on the platter. Tenma claims countless times that he is ready to kill Johan, but his actions tell the opposite story. ] Lastly, when I look at Tenma I see a crushed man, not a hero. It's true that he's tremendously burdened and he put into one unfavorable situation after another, but unlike other heroes the burden really shows on Tenma's character. At times he appears distant, crestfallen, depressed, and constantly conflicted. To put it bluntly compared to other heroes like Shu and Kenshin he doesn't handle stress and bad situations very well when it comes down to his primary goal. Group A-27 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth Goku As simple as his character may be, Goku's purity and devotion to good are commendable even though some his choices may be considered a tad bit reckless at the very least. Group A-28 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Usagi Tsukino (aka Sailor Moon), Sailor Moon Usagi Tsukino Shu is about as tough as opponents come, and I doubt that Sailor Moon will be able to survive this match, but I believe that it is important that Usagi receives at some support. Her compassion and ability to spread friendship is impressive -- it's shame that she's also naive and a klutz. I won't be disappointed if Shu wins though. |
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Jarmyn
Posts: 44 Location: Indianapolis/Indiana |
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Okay, argument time. dtm42 states that Goku is not heroic because he shows mercy to his enemies even though they're irredeemable and takes too many massive risks to be a true hero. However I can apply this same argument to both Kenshin and Tenma.
I'm sure most of you remember the Kyoto arc in which Kenshin and his friends must stop Makoto Shishio a bloodthirsty Darwinist madman who wants to conquer Japan and turn it into hell on earth were only the strongest survive? Think about how much trouble Kenshin would've saved everyone if he had just for once abandoned his no-killing rule and cut Shishio in half at the first opportunity. Instead spoiler[ he pulls his punches during the final battle with Shishio and very nearly loses the battle if not for the fact Shishio ends up dying through deus ex machina of self combustion.] And then there Tenma, now Mad_Scientist makes a good argument for this but there is still the fact imply at the end of Monster that spoiler[ Johan hasn't really changed at all and is still going to do horrible things to the world regardless of being forgiven by Dr. Tenma and his sister Nina. Remember the story makes it quite clear that Johan is evil not because of his upbringing at Kinderheim 511 but by his own free conscious choice. So that means Dr. Tenma should have killed him or at the very least let him die at the end of the story.] Now lets look at Goku which a lot of the stuff dtm42 says about him is highly inaccurate. spoiler[ He sacrifices himself to kill Raditz, breaks Nappa's back so he could never hurt anyone again, Gives Frieza the beating of a lifetime and once Frieza rejects his offer at mercy, blows him away. Comes up with an intelligent plan on how to defeat Cell and willingly sacrifices himself to save his son and friends. Now, his actions during the Buu saga were a bit dubious but you must realize they were really the ONLY way, he couldn't have beaten Fat Majin Buu during his first battle with him because he was running out of time (he was still dead at that point and could only stay in the living world for about one day) so he had to rely on training Goten and Trunks to defeat him. The Vegeto thing was was pretty irresponsible that I'll admit that it seems like fusion just has that nasty side effects of making people arrogant and not taking things seriously. As for the final battle against Buu, Goku was giving it his all in the fight against the even stronger Kid Majin Buu to the point that he was about to collapse from exhaustion, and that I think counts for something. ] Ask for the whole issue of the Dragonballs conveniently fixing everything, let me ask you this: If the Dragonballs existed in the worlds of Utawarerumono, Ruroni Kenshin, Monster, Claymore, Magic Knight Rayearth, Now and Then, Here and There, and Sailor Moon, would not the heroes there use them the same way Goku and the rest of the Z-warriors do? |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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The story makes it quite clear that Tenma shouldn't have killed him, as we see with the example of Bonaparta that even the evilest of men can be redeemed. Think about it; spoiler[if Urasawa wanted to make the point that some men must die for the good of others, he would have had Tenma kill Johann in the end.] What happened instead is that Tenma's beliefs are reaffirmed and championed - that life is equal, and that killing a killer is not right. Tenma is not stupid; he knows that a difference in degree is a difference in kind, but death does not function in degrees. Death is final, which is why its execution should never be in the hands of another human being. While you and I may personally disagree with this philosophy, the series does not.
Well, honestly, I can't see how one can be under constant stress and be a happy and cheerful person. Tenma is wanted for multiple murders (that, mind you, he fought to stop), he is haunted by misplaced guilt, and in mortal danger for a large part of the series. To show him as anything else than crestfallen and conflicted would be bad characterization. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Hey Key, when I get around to voting, can my sentences be that short and simple? Please, pretty please???
I'm not going to dignify this with an answer, besides this very sentence of course. |
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_Earthwyrm_
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Group A-25
Hakuoro, Utawarerumono vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise I absolutely loved that clip of Hakuoro. I saw compassion, intelligence, charisma, courage, mercy and a belief in innocence as virtue - all of which constitute the main components of what heroism means to me. What a guy. On top of that, from the influence that he seems to wield among the village people, it is as though he is their de facto leader - if he has become that to the village people on the basis of his own merits even as an outsider, then I can at least give him the credit of a vote. What a guy. Kensin was also impressive, for the record. Group A-26 Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster vs. Clare, Claymore This really is no competition, Dr. Tenma beats Clare hands down. I've been basing all of my votes against Clare, from round one, on the few episodes of Claymore that I'd seen. In those episodes, Clare really had done nothing to impress me - sure, she's strong, but who isn't (Oh... Tenma, how refreshing). She has done very little in my eyes to rise above the mould, her main distinguishing characteristics compared to the 'average' protagonist being that she... wears darker clothing? Has a more dubious central motive? I was hoping that perhaps a clip would be provided which gave me a new insight on Clare, and maybe gave me an idea of what people see in her - unfortunately, and quite coincidentally, the clip is extracted from one of the few episodes that I have seen. She's a nothing. I don't even know why she's here. Group A-27 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth Goku. People seem to read his intent in one of two ways - arrogance or mercy. I see mercy, and a belief that any character can be redeemed. Hikaru... I didn't see much to vote for. Goku isn't going down yet. Group A-28 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Usagi Tsukino (aka Sailor Moon), Sailor Moon Firstly, I'm wondering how this clip was supposed to showcase Usagi's heroism? First, she doesn't want to face up to Jadeite because he's scary, then when a plan is (eventually) formed to defeat him, Usagi's main role is the passive one of being a decoy. Great, so when was the transition from comedy goofball to heroine suppose to be? Was it when she struck the final attack? :s I'm guessing it wasn't while the girls ran around in circles for God only knows how long waiting for a cat to tell them to stop being stupid. Oh, then at the end we got some cheesy girrrl power lines - was that the part I was looking for? This probably worked well for pre-teens listening to their Spice Girls cassette tapes in the 90s, but it didn't work for me. The saddest thing is that I didn't have a prejudice against Sailor Moon until after I saw this clip - I was even planning to watch it some time. Now I think it's one of the stupidest things ever. Woe. Shu's clip, meanwhile, was amazing. He has the stuff. Before this tournament, I had no idea who he was, but people have been voting for him and voting for him and now... I know why. My God, the boy is amazing. He has also single-handedly destroyed my bracket without even trying. What a guy. Last edited by _Earthwyrm_ on Mon May 25, 2009 7:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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I personally think the case of Sailor Moon is the only time it would be acceptable  It is a sentence after all, not just a name.
I assure you, this will be the only instance in the whole tournament where my explanation is this short.
That's a darn good question. Certainly not within the first 12 episodes of the series. They were all pretty much the same as this and I'm sure it continues on like that for probably half the series.
Now that's what I'm talking about. From what I saw in the first couple episodes the Cat was waaaay more heroic. Always telling Usagi what to do. Very smart about every subject. That cat kicks ass. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 19133 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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[quote="ccdx"]
Since ccdx has said it won't happen again, I'll tolerate it this time, but let's avoid any ""nuff said" or "for obvious reasons" explanations in the future, okay? Short answers are fine as long as they tell us something. "I'm voting for Shu because Usagi totally failed to impress me" is perfectly acceptable, for instance. And dtm42: Don't put off your voting too long. People have been known to lose track of time and thus miss out. . . |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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A-25
Kenshin I confess that the two are so evenly matched that I cannot find daylight between them. So with no disrespect to Hakuoro, I will go with Kenshin, whom I picked for the Minigame. A-26 Clare I've watched the first five episodes of Claymore and the first eight episodes of Monster. So I confess I'm speaking in vast ignorance here. But from what I've seen and heard, Clare had a sad and awful upbringing, was shown a sort of kindness from spoiler[Teresa], and reciprocated it to Raki. She became a Claymore for whatever reason (I haven't got up to that part), so I don't know if the reason is for justice or simply revenge. So she's not the best candidate, but actually not too bad. And the end of episode four convinces me that she still has a heart in there somewhere. Now, Johan is a vile creature - a true monster - who should be removed from the world. Tenma in the episodes I watched was a kind-hearted man, but a hero in my eyes is someone who gets his hands bloody so that no-one else has to. Someone who is willing to sacrifice their humanity in order to do the Right Thing (which is why I was so angry that Lelouch was banned from even being considered). Tenma, time and time again, wasn't willing to do it. Soldiers kill other soldiers on the battlefield all the time, and both the the victors and the victims in such encounters have wives and children and parents and friends. Being a soldier is a state of mind, not how much training one's received. Tenma was up against a despicable mind rather than just a normal human being, and yet he just couldn't do it. Refusal to just pull the freaking trigger is one of my biggest gripes against Gantz. And I from everything I've heard and read about Monster (which I readily admit is not everything), it is my biggest gripe against Tenma. Heroes put not just their bodies but their souls on the line, should circumstances demand it. Clare chose to become the very thing she hated in order to strike down evil, while Tenma was unable to do something that no rational person would hold against him. Clare wins. My vote at least. A-27 Hikaru After what I said about Goku, I cannot in good conscience go ahead and vote for him, even though I picked him on my Minigame to win this match. Hikaru seems decent, so I'll go with her. For detailed reasons of why I don't consider Goku a true hero, see my previous posts. A-28 Shu I have to commiserate with Earth_Wyrm about how Shu destroyed my bracket. I also have to say that despite this, and despite Now and Then, Here and There being what looks to be a very sad Anime, that I immediately want to go out and watch it. How could I not know it was this good? |
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murph76
 Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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Group A-25
Hakuoro, Utawarerumono vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise Kenshin I have yet to see the franchise, but I hear excellent things about it and its hero. Group A-26 Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster vs. Clare, Claymore Tenma, based on other's arguments. He seems more selfless, putting his own needs aside to follow his conscience. Group A-27 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth Goku. As much as I dislike the franchise and want to vote against it, Goku's heroics save the day. Group A-28 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Usagi Tsukino (aka Sailor Moon), Sailor Moon Shu. Has the moral courage to hold to his beliefs even when it means horrible things will happen to him. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Might as well do this now or never.
Group A-25 Hakuoro, Utawarerumono vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise Good clips, I was already familiar with both characters this time around but a quick reminder is always welcome. Kenshin gets my vote over Hakuoro, all in all, because of the sheer scale and the exact nature of his dedication to his cause. That's not to say that Hakuoro doesn't have a lot to deal with, but...it's different, although not necessarily worse. Group A-26 Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster vs. Clare, Claymore While Dr. Tenma displays, in this particular clip, an admirable form of heroism, selflessness, bravery and the decision to follow his principles no matter the cost, which goes along with what I've heard about him...I do feel that the arguments about his later doubts and failure to fully carry out his resolve may be starting to hurt him, particularly because of upholding certain principles above others. Whether life should be valued the most in each and every circumstance is one of those great moral questions which is never going to find an absolute answer, neither in real life nor in fiction. Is Clare, however, a better alternative to Tenma at the moment? Despite agreeing with a lot of dtm42's basic interpretation...my answer is nevertheless a no. Tenma shouldn't win this contest but I do feel Clare isn't quite good enough to beat him yet. Group A-27 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth In a bit of an interesting way to turn things around...Hikaru has a fairly impressive clip and, while, Goku's got more than enough of a record in terms of practical heroics to support his current progress in this contest...I would say the recent arguments against him are also compelling enough to start backing other options. Group A-28 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Usagi Tsukino (aka Sailor Moon), Sailor Moon Shu was always an interesting candidate, going by the guide entry and past arguments, who's got a very good clip now. He has gone beyond my expectations due to it, not having seen the series involved yet, while Usagi, despite showing some admirable virtues...falls a bit short. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 19133 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group A is now closed.
Final results can be found here. Shouldn't be any surprises, as the only one that was even remotely close was the Goku/Hikaru match, and that one Goku still won by a comfortable margin. That leaves four quite strong contenders to battle it out next round for two spots in the group finals. The other amusing number is that, for the fifth straight time, we've had exactly 27 votes. And it hasn't been the exact same set of 27 people each time, either. I have everything ready to go as I write this, so next round should be up momentarily. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 19133 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group B is now closed.
As with last group, video clips for each entrant are included on their respective Guide pages (linked via their names). Watching these clips before voting is strongly recommended for those not already familiar with the represented series. We have some strong match-ups this time around; honestly, I can't see more than maybe one of these being a blow-out. (And after all of the blow-outs last group, that'll be a nice change of pace.) Anyway, on with the show! Group B-25 Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist vs. Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka Winner: Onizuka Total: 16-9 Group B-26 Astro Boy, Astro Boy (Note: link is for original 1963 version) vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Winner: Balsa Total: 22-3 Group B-27 Shurei Kou/Hong, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena Winner: Utena Total: 13-12 Group B-28 Taichi Keaton, Master Keaton vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Winner: Vash Total: 19-6 Last edited by Key on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Mini-game results.
There was very little change in the order of the mini-game competitors, although Key did manage to tie up with first place leader Mad_Scientist. Ggultra and guet both picked up a couple of places, while Aylinn fell several. A handful of people fell back a place due to not maintaining a tie score, but that's it. Poor spoiler[Lydia] is now out of the running. Better luck next time. |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Group B-25
Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist vs. Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka I'm sticking with Ed. Yes, the clip of Onizuka was certainly heroic, but the way he acts the rest of the time is just a turn off for me. Group B-26 Astro Boy, Astro Boy (Note: link is for original 1963 version) vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa continues to get my vote. I like how she feels she needs to repay those who spoiler[lost their lives trying to kill her] by saving the lives of others. Group B-27 Shurei Kou/Hong, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena This is a touch choice. Both are equally heroic in their own way. But I'm going to go with Shurei because the quiet refusal to not break is more impressive as well as standing up for what she believed in. Group B-28 Taichi Keaton, Master Keaton vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Going with Keaton. I just like him as a hero better. |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Group B-25
Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist vs. Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka Voting for: Eikichi Onizuka Reason: This is a close one, both have attitudes that make them seem less heroic than they are, but both step up and help others despite this. I'll give the slight edge to Onizuka, as I feel that Ed's motives are more selfish from time to time. Group B-26 Astro Boy, Astro Boy (Note: link is for original 1963 version) vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Balsa Reason: It's a combination of Astro's weakness and Balsa's strength in my opinion. Astro is classic, but a bit generic, while Balsa is still one of the top female characters in the entire tournament. Group B-27 Shurei Kou/Hong, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena Voting for: Utena Reason: To be honest, I'm a bit underwhelmed with both choices. Utena seemed to have a bit of support in the earlier rounds, so I'll vote this way. Group B-28 Taichi Keaton, Master Keaton vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Voting for: Vash Reason: Keaton is a good guy, but he has more of a jack of all trades thing going, where vash has little to his character besides heroics. |
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