Forum - View topicWikipedia and CLAMP
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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(Warning: This is a rant, it is also from my own subjective viewpoint as a participant in the debates. And with that, here we go!)
The Strange case of CLAMP A few weeks ago, the wikipedia article for CLAMP was changed unilaterally to "Clamp (manga artists)" which drew the attention of fans of the group. The initial responses were waved aside by the person who moved the page, citing wikipedia guidelines which state that trademarked names must have capitalized letters removed from them in articles. This was immediately rebuffed since CLAMP is not a trademark, but a pseudonym and according to another set of wikipedia guidelines which deal with topics related to Japan, pseudonyms are to be used with an explanation of the person or persons working under that synonym. Once again, the person who moved the page was unwilling to budge. At this time, a straw poll was created and formal request to move the article back to CLAMP with the addition of (manga artists) was placed. I became involved in the discussion at this point after seeing it linked from the anime and manga wikiproject. I was amazed to see that, along with the editor who had made the original move, some of the more well-known WikiProject Anime and Manga members were supporting the move. A discussion ensued, became heated and as I was placing an argument on the discussion page for CLAMP, the discussion was cut off by an administrator of wikipedia. In reaction to this jolting closure of the discussion, I reverted the closure and tried to place my response. The administrator then left me a message which included a warning "do not attempt to revert an administrator's closure of a move proposal". Words were bantered back and forth at this point and I decided, since the discussion was cut off prior to being completed to relist the page for moving. This was immediately closed, ending discussion despite the lack of clear consensus which is required for the closure of a page move discussion. In the end, despite being shown verifiable, reliable data to show that CLAMP is the proper spelling per the wikipedia guidelines, the challenging of all the arguments made against the recapitalization of the name and under the weight of ignorant votes by editors who did not even bother to read the article, as shown by their continued reference of CLAMP as a "band", the page stayed at the contested location. There has been questions raised about Wikipedia's bias against "otaku" topics in the past. The deletion of webcomics by the hundreds, the deletion of pages dedicated to mobile suits in various Gundam series (and the near loss of the RX-78 Gundam itself to a deletion discussion) have been seen as part of the continued attack on anime and manga related articles. Today's closure of a vote to present CLAMP accurately is just another lost battle on the pages of Wikipedia. |
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Levitz9
 Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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Well, unless they talk about each and every single character in every season of Star Trek and ignore anime, then we don't have much to go on in the 'bias' area.
Remember--Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an ANIME encyclopedia. They just need the facts. And I'm not sure that a few webcomics are deemed as more than 'trivial' to the people of Wikipedia. |
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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Agreed, it is not an anime encyclopedia, but when they do not even get the facts correct (such as CLAMP's spelling), it loses value. |
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Levitz9
Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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Still, whether or not the entirety of the name of a group is capitalized or not, is important to the people behind Wikipedia is another thing. |
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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You'd think that accuracy would be key.... If it isn't, why not be uncyclopedia and just make things up? |
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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My understanding of Wikipedia is that anyone who's so inclined can enter information. That means that it will range from completely accurate to blatant errors depending on who puts the information in. I believe it does have an option for other readers to add corrections, so if an error upsets people that much, they can feel free to write in themselves. |
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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Yes, the problem here is that we have tried to avoid edit warring over this name change and taken it to the proper steps, but the inaccuracies have won this battle and wikipedia's guidelines are being used, improperly in my opinion, to support them. Seriously, they're giving equal weight to people who think CLAMP is a musical group to those who are providing reliable sources that show that CLAMP is the preferred, more accurate spelling. One good thing that came out of this, Amazon and the Library of Congress's records have been changed to reflect CLAMP properly. I should not have posted this and instead sent it in to "Hey! Answerman". 
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Kouji
 Posts: 978 |
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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Its in the discussion of the move on the talk page, one of the fine supporters of the changed name constantly was calling them a band, suggesting that they follow the band manual of style, etc. I'm not really reacting as badly as I seem to be, I'm really terribly amused by it. I'm just very pro-accuracy when you're supposedly creating an encyclopedia. Mistakes happen sure, but they should not be causing mistakes by decree. And, just fyi, the guy who moved the page went through every article with CLAMP in it and reduced the capitalization. I am so glad I am not him. Actually, they are saying "Clamp is the correct English spelling because in English we only capitalize the first letter of nouns." If you'd like, I could link you to someone saying pretty much exactly that.... |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Sounds like Wikipedia doesn't know jack squat about our culture. But then again, you have to remember that Wikipedia's information is not going to be 100% accurate. On the other hand I have to agree that with a powerhouse like Wikipedia it gives misleading information. It doesn't really help when you're trying to prove something and you got totally shut down for your point.
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1371 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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While I do some edits into Wikipedia myself - it's basically a policy of the whole site to have facts -- not "original research". And now, I'm gonna look a bit into this.
It seems this argument stems from the use of Clamp as opposed to CLAMP. Well, if you can find a source saying that the official trademark for the group to be CLAMP... to be all caps. Then provide it. === http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Clamp_%28manga_artists%29#Capitalisation_and_WP:MOS-TM === Reading further into that. It's rather... interesting. 
=== Ah, I saw the point using KISS (the band) as an example. Even that trademarked name is put as a "Proper Name". (First letter cap, all else small) |
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Kyaa the Catlord
Posts: 300 |
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Pssst, one of my arguments is that CLAMP isn't a trademark name and should follow the "commonname" guideline or if MOSTM is insisted upon, it should be like MCI and fit the criteria for "essentially never used". The amount of CLAMP instances vs Clamp instances is overwhelming. |
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one3rd
 Posts: 1820 Location: アメリカ |
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I think you misunderstand just what a trademark is. Webster offers these definitions:
CLAMP is a name for a group of artists, but it also serves as a trademark that identifies that group of artists. In a legal sense, a trademark is established by the exercise or use of that trademark and it does not need to be registered with any government agency to be a valid trademark. CLAMP is a trademark, and if anyone ever tried to publish manga under the name CLAMP or any confusingly similar name, they would likely be served with a trademark infringement lawsuit. I won't, however, comment on whether the name should be in all-caps or not. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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My two cents: does it actually matter? I personally don't care if people spell it CLAMP or Clamp. I know what they're talking about, good enough for me.
Too many people seem to get a kick out of nitpicking
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10539 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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ANN's position on capitalized names is the same as Wikipedia's, but only when it comes to editorial content. In regards to the Encyclopedia, we take the opposite stance.
Wikipedia's decision to use a Pseudonym and it's decision to not use capitals are two separate issues. Use of a Pseudonym doesn't mean imply use of the pseudonym's alternate grammar. Use of a pseudonym means they use Monkey Punch as the main listing, not Kazuhiko Katō. If Monkey Punch were to change his name to MONKEY PUNCH, Wikipedia would still list it as Monkey Punch, adhering to both their pseudonym and grammar rules. Company's capitalize their names to make them stick out. For example, what name do you see the most in the following article? (I made this article up)
It's just a marketing gimmick to make a name stand out more. Our policy, which isn't always enforced, is to use proper English grammar in all editorial content. In the encyclopedia we list company and people's names the way they wish to be listed. Some media outlets won't even allow incorrect use of non-alphabetical characters. For example they remove the exclamation mark from Yahoo! when writing about that company. Perhaps the people complaining about how Wikipedia does things should take the time to learn about grammar standards in publishing before complaining about things they know nothing about. -t |
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