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Like Magneto, Scar In Fullmetal Alchemist Was Right


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tintor2



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 8:59 am Reply with quote
Yeah, 2003 Scar was a different monster. The whole Nina death scene made worse by her father making a copy of her and both survive. Scar's death also causes an insane amount of deaths

Still,I think Mizushima made me hate Alphonse for that time he sided with Scar for one worst subplots I've seen in the series. He thought Edward created him and hates him for that enough to side with Scar? Edward was scared he hated him for coming up with the idea of reviving their mother but as soon as they make peace Alphonse asks Edward not to bother Scar. Even now I feel that episode tried to make me too hard care about the character and forget about the protagonist's own feelings. Then again, Edward's reaction to the fact Mustang was hiding the opressed city and Hughes' death in 2003 felt too childish which feels especially serious when Winry's grandma tries to calm him down and discipline him.

It's a shame how Suguru Geto from Jujutsu Kaisen 0 had a lot build up to be as serious as Magneto and Scar but then Shibuya happened.

I'll see if I can watch the rest of the new Xmen.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2488
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:07 am Reply with quote
The worst thing Magneto ever died, outside of the mass murder and attempts to kill billions, was when he turned all of Manhatten into a death camp. He was on drugs and was banging an underage girl he brainwashed at the same time. All this was under Grant Morrison and was retcon almost immediately (one of the fastest retcons of all time) after Morrison was fired from the comic under VERY heated circumstances. They never worked with Marvel again. What has that to do with anything? The Magento was Right shirt starts that very run. The author wants you to think that people like Magneto are a bad day away from turning into literally Hitler and deserve death. That bad day was the death of 16.5 million mutants in an hour but it came and Wolverine took his head.

Quote:
What people often forget, of course, is that Magneto, unlike the lovely Sir Ian McKellen, is a mad old terrorist twat. No matter how he justifies his stupid, brutal behaviour, or how anyone else tries to justify it, in the end he's just an old bastard with daft, old ideas based on violence and coercion. I really wanted to make that clear at this time.


Kamen Rider Black Sun was an interesting show as it came to the conclusion that the only way to fight fascism and a totalitarian state is terrorism regardless of the death toll. It ends with a battalion of radicalized child soldiers being trained. It´s stand in for Shinzo Abe also ate homosexuals and the homeless. Amazing stuff. Japanese fans who hated the show literally call it "woke" on Amazon.jp.
The Darwin Incident´s anime can´t come soon enough. The first openly political anime since Genocidal Organ in 2017?
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Sheenoobuu



Joined: 17 Sep 2019
Posts: 84
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:27 am Reply with quote
Ignoring how hilariously ridiculous the title of this is, I agree with this except that Scar targeted alchemists uninvolved in the massacre of his people, making him not very right quite a few times. Magneto on the other hand is correct in assuming their are no innocent lives since all of humanity will eventually become a mutant, thus making the mutant issue everyone's issue.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6125
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:24 am Reply with quote
residentgrigo wrote:
That bad day was the death of 16.5 million mutants in an hour but it came and Wolverine took his head.


I presume this was after Magento ripped the adamantium from Logan’s skeleton. Since I believe the Genosha massacre happened after the above and therefore would give Logan considerable incentive to settle the score.
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SanguineSeagull



Joined: 19 Jan 2024
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:07 pm Reply with quote
I do not know what possessed the ANN staff to approve this piece but here we go.

I'm an Israeli. I'm very critical of Israel's actions in the war, even as I understand, and agree with, some of the reasoning behind them.

I can only assume the author has never found themselves related in any way to a serious conflict, aside from just being American.

I did.

Once you are exposed to the things we, humans, are willing to do to each other; once you see other humans stop at NOTHING, and I mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G, to achieve their goals - that's when you should consider whether Magneto or Scar or anyone else calling for genocide is "right".

Because that's what choosing violence means - like it or not, you cannot stem ideologies, or oppressed people's fight without killing all of them.

I do not want to choose that, and so I must "find" (as if my actions have even the slightest impact on any kind of policy) other ways - even if it means embracing people who wish to harm me.

That is because "people" are not a monolithic body, and they can change over time.

Anger, violence and hatred are not quenchable by force without giving up any semblance of humanity.

I understand this is a comic and manga discussion, but for whatever reason I ended up taking it personally.

Peace.
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Minos_Kurumada



Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 1124
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:59 pm Reply with quote
Ultimately, the power of the state is the monopoly of violence granted to it by the population in order to attain stability.

When you argue that a particular who used violence to solve an issue was justified then you are arguing the state cannot keep said monopoly.

That's what self defence rules are for, these ask for proportionality in the use of reciprocal force and some common sense, there has also needs to be an appropriate target.

Thus, when you are falling in the question "What this character is doing is justified" what you need to answer is "Is it loginal, is proportional and the target of the violence is the appropriate?".

Scar was looking for vengeance and only targeted those who did him wrong, he also just killed them with efficiency and didn't overstepped himself.

Magneto is the "I became what I wanted to destroy" archetype, most probably he bagan like Scar and radicalized with time.

Thus, the only difference between the 2 characters is time.
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That Little Rapscallion



Joined: 31 Jul 2023
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Sheenoobuu wrote:
Ignoring how hilariously ridiculous the title of this is, I agree with this except that Scar targeted alchemists uninvolved in the massacre of his people, making him not very right quite a few times. Magneto on the other hand is correct in assuming their are no innocent lives since all of humanity will eventually become a mutant, thus making the mutant issue everyone's issue.


If you want to get technical it's not a human vs mutant issue but a Sublime vs mutant issue. The only reason anti-mutant hate exists in the Marvel universe in the first place is because of a sentient bacteria known as Sublime who can't possess mutants so it infects humans and makes them hate mutants in a means of self-preservation to keep humans as the dominate species. All the anti-mutant hysteria is manufactured and doesn't actually exist and humans are indeed innocent.

Have not watched the new X-Men and have no real desire to after how bad other 90s reboots/sequels like Rugrats, Animaniacs, and Tiny Toons were, but if humans do indeed side with Magneto that would be a pretty funny "I never thought leopards would eat MY face" moment of humans siding with a human-hating terrorist.
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Lily Garden



Joined: 03 Sep 2023
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:45 pm Reply with quote
It was an interesting article but it lacks two points that are very important to this conversation.

1) In the latter half of the series (episode 39 of Brotherhood) Scar's injuries are treated by Winry, the daughter of the doctors he killed in a fit of delirious rage. She tells him that she bandaged him because "it would be something her parents would do". This act alters Scar's character trajectory.

2) The next point is the subject of Names. After the Amestrian military campaign against the Ishvalans, and starting his quest for vengeance Scar discarded his old name, as he thought his descent into such violent depth made him unworthy to carry his former name. Then at the end of the manga and Brotherhood, after he has moved past the need for vengeance, he discards the name Scar.

Names have power, and this ties in with the article's thematic pairing of him with Magneto. Magneto wasn't born with the name Magneto, he took upon this name after deciding on his mission for mutantkind as a result of experiencing all that trauma.
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sharkticon



Joined: 19 Jul 2011
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:45 pm Reply with quote
Articles like this one always fascinate me, because forget all the nuance. In the case of Magneto, his whole deal is Mutant Zionism. His origin was inspired by the founder of Likkud. Even in X-Men '97, even as a hero, his solution to any mutant problem is to move them to whatever mutant homeland he is selling this week. In the comics, he even displaced the humans from Genosha.

I keep seeing people decrying the outcome of policies and beliefs like Magneto's, yet consistently saying he was right, or wishing their own people had their Magneto. But that way lies madness.

Magneto has some valid points, and his anger is understandable, that is what makes him one of the most compelling villains in fiction. This is especially true when contrasted with Charles Xavier, who's smugness and privilege lead to respectability politics, which have been historically less than successful.

In the end, I would like to get off my soapbox by pointing to the character who learned the correct lessons from both. Cyclops was right.
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Essedess



Joined: 03 Jan 2024
Posts: 76
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:46 pm Reply with quote
Kind of hard to argue against Magneto when the humans prove him right at every chance they get. Hell, you could argue that spoiler[Bastion] would have relented in the end until the humans spoiler[launched the missiles.]
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6125
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:53 pm Reply with quote
sharkticon wrote:
In the end, I would like to get off my soapbox by pointing to the character who learned the correct lessons from both. Cyclops was right.



I was wondering when someone was going to utter this.
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dmanatunga



Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:08 pm Reply with quote
residentgrigo wrote:

Kamen Rider Black Sun was an interesting show as it came to the conclusion that the only way to fight fascism and a totalitarian state is terrorism regardless of the death toll. It ends with a battalion of radicalized child soldiers being trained. It´s stand in for Shinzo Abe also ate homosexuals and the homeless. Amazing stuff. Japanese fans who hated the show literally call it "woke" on Amazon.jp.
The Darwin Incident´s anime can´t come soon enough. The first openly political anime since Genocidal Organ in 2017?


Hell yeah, someone else who knows about Genocidal Organ. That movie (and book) are constantly in my mind and have affected how I think about the world.
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:36 pm Reply with quote
The lesson you're supposed to take from Magneto is to not become the authoritarian bigot while fighting against bigotry. The problem is that people fall into that trap over and over because it's so easy to justify. Why should you have to be the better person in the face of the people who've wronged you or even fight to deny your right to exist?

I thought about leaving this out, but since you touched on the fact that the writers made Magneto a Holocaust survivor, It's not a coincidence they made that choice for a deeply angry man that preaches about the genetic superiority of his race. But once he's repeated the crimes that made him, his victims aren't going to care why. Then back around we go.
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animaters



Joined: 21 Apr 2022
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:51 pm Reply with quote
[quote="animaters"][quote="animaters"]
SanguineSeagull wrote:
I do not know what possessed the ANN staff to approve this piece, but here we go.

I'm an Israeli. I'm very critical of Israel's actions in the war, even as I understand, and agree with, some reasoning behind them.

I can only assume the author has never found themselves related in any way to a serious conflict, aside from just being American.

I did.

Once you are exposed to the things we, humans, are willing to do to each other; once you see other humans stop at NOTHING, and I mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G, to achieve their goals - that's when you should consider whether Magneto or Scar or anyone else calling for genocide is "right".

Because that's what choosing violence means - like it or not, you cannot stem ideologies, or oppressed people's fight without killing all of them.

I do not want to choose that, and so I must "find" (as if my actions have even the slightest impact on any kind of policy) other ways - even if it means embracing people who wish to harm me.

That is because "people" are not a monolithic body, and they can change over time.

Anger, violence and hatred are not quenchable by force without giving up any semblance of humanity.

I understand this is a comic and manga discussion, but for whatever reason I ended up taking it personally.

Peace.


Shallom/salam/azul fellaween

Dunno why you took it personally since they raised fair points but can't judge you since i'm writing this response to you out of personal beliefs as well.

Quote:
I'm an Israeli. I'm very critical of Israel's actions in the war, even as I understand, and agree with, some of the reasoning behind them.


You say that Israeli are skeptical of their government but isn't the israeli government a democracy that likes to pat on its back about the fact how it's the only elective democracy in the Middle East? (we gonna ignore the fact that morocco and tunisia where elections are a thing exist to entertain this americano-israeli rhetoric)

Then by that metric, wouldn't and shouldn't the Israeli voters use their powers as electors to not vote alt-right parties like Netanyahu in power? Such parties don't want peace, but only elimination of Palestine and a conflict by proxy with other Arab nations.

I'd love as well to hear the reasoning behind using mass starvation and collective punishment as a way to force Hamas hand to surrender when Hamas don't care about sacrificing innocent Palestine lives.

Stalin said it best: one life is a tragedy, a million is just a number. They won't stop till they achieve their goal, so may as well kill all Palestine by that logic.

Quote:
I can only assume the author has never found themselves related in any way to a serious conflict, aside from just being American. i did


And funny thing you bring up americans since israelis are the ones who dragged them into unleashing a war on the Middle East and invading iraq & backing rebels against Syria which destabilized the entire Middle East forever; but sure..

Quote:
. Once you are exposed to the things we, humans, are willing to do to each other; once you see other humans stop at NOTHING, and I mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G, to achieve their goals - that's when you should consider whether Magneto or Scar or anyone else calling for genocide is "right".


Goals? So you think an entire nation of people are just gonna idly sit by while being occupied? spare me the sunshine and rainbow tainted glasses, it's always been that way.

We Moroccans were occupied by Spain and france and fought nail to tooth to free ourselves and we stopped at nothing against the world imperial occupiers!

And for the reference, i'm a bebrer moroccoan and have no red cow on the arab vs Hebrew/yahood racism fiasco. tho as a fellow human, middle easterner, african, muslim and just a person in general who believes in the greater good, i can't sit and watch an entire people get massacres right and left and pretend nothing is happening.

Terrorism will always be a thing for Israel as long as it keeps occupying Palestine.

Quote:
1948-1949 Arab-Israeli War: This was the first major conflict that broke out immediately after Israel's declaration of independence in 1948. It resulted in Israel controlling most of the former British Mandate of Palestine, while Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.

1967 Six-Day War: In this war, Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem from Arab forces. This significantly expanded the territory under Israeli control.

First Intifada (1987-1993): This was a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. It involved civil disobedience, demonstrations, and some violence, leading to clashes with Israeli security forces.

Second Intifada (2000-2005): Also known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada, this was a period of intensified Israeli-Palestinian violence, including suicide bombings and Israeli military operations.

2008-2009 Gaza War (Operation Cast Lead): Israel launched air strikes and a ground invasion of Gaza in response to rocket attacks by Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that controls Gaza.

2012 Operation Pillar of Defense: Israel launched airstrikes on Gaza after a surge of rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel.

2014 Gaza War (Operation Protective Edge): Another major conflict between Israel and Hamas, lasting 50 days and resulting in over 2,000 Palestinian and 70 Israeli deaths.

2021 Israel-Gaza Conflict: Tensions escalated in May 2021, with Hamas launching hundreds of rockets into Israel and Israel conducting airstrikes on Gaza, leading to over 250 deaths, mostly Palestinian.


And now with this war, and Netanyahu proposing a Swiss-chess plan for Gaza to be turned into west bank 2.0 (good luck with that)

And for the reference, Hebrews of Moroccan origin are the second-largest ethnicity in Israel after Russians. Many of them are Berbers related and I don't condone what they are doing either at all.

The Abraham accords are not a solution when American can't guarantee even its own stability with its constant bi-polarized left and right keep fighting, a credible two-states plan is.

Israel did a gamble with the Abraham accords and lost that gamble. *Shrugs*

That was all. ⴰ ⵡ'ⴰⵔⴰ ⵢⴰⴼⵏ ⵎⴷⴷⵏ ⴰⴽⴽ ⵍⵍⴰⵏ ⵃⵎⵎⵍⵏ ⵜⴰⵍⵡⵉⵜ (i wish everyone would love peace) bye and bless u all.

and sry for the lengthy post, i'm from MENA so dunno how to condense it without losing context lol


Last edited by animaters on Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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light turner



Joined: 13 Aug 2022
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:00 pm Reply with quote
MagicianMan wrote:
The lesson you're supposed to take from Magneto is to not become the authoritarian bigot while fighting against bigotry. The problem is that people fall into that trap over and over because it's so easy to justify. Why should you have to be the better person in the face of the people who've wronged you or even fight to deny your right to exist?

I thought about leaving this out, but since you touched on the fact that the writers made Magneto a Holocaust survivor, It's not a coincidence they made that choice for a deeply angry man that preaches about the genetic superiority of his race. But once he's repeated the crimes that made him, his victims aren't going to care why. Then back around we go.


Making Magento a Holocaust survivor was one of the few retcons I liked because it does tie into the cycle of hatred and adds a nice angle to his Mutant Supremacist ideals. He became the very thing he hated in Mutant Hitler. The oppressed becoming the oppressors is a common trope in both fiction and real life. I also liked in X-Men Evolution when they made it so Captain America and Wolverine were the one to rescue him from a concentration camp as a child.

Unfortunately due to their nature comic books are wildly inconsistent and often times hypocritical between writers and runs. Every so often you do get a guy who thinks they're being extremely smart with the character by asking the bold question if genocide might be a good thing or not. Comparing a character like Scar to Magneto is always going to put the latter at a disadvantage because the former has the benefit of a singular voice with a finite end. Yeah, FMA also has the 2003 anime which wasn't written by Arakawa but at least it still had a finite end. I can see the argument 2003 Scar had a more fitting end compared to manga Scar who just kind of gets away with everything, but that's extremely common in anime like with Vegeta and Orochimaru. Once you join the good guys your past matters little.
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