Forum - View topicThis Week in Games - Another Turn With The Turn-Based "Debate"?
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Lord Geo
Posts: 3002 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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Another thing to note about GOG's Dreamlist is that it has absolutely no checks in play, namely when it comes to a simple (but major) aspect: There needs to be a prior PC version first.
That's why Breath of Fire IV was given the treatment more than any number of votes & personal stories people told: It's the only Breath of Fire game that ever received a PC port back in the day. GOG didn't "port" BoFIV, they simply patched the existing PC port from 2003 (which originally saw release in Japan & Europe, but not North America) so that it would work on modern PC hardware with modern USB controller support, & they fixed some bugs. The same is true of Dino Crisis 1 & 2 previously, hence why Dino Crisis 3 & Dino Stalker weren't re-released alongside them, since those didn't have prior PC ports. However, GOG doesn't clarify that point, so they allow literally any game possible to be requested, which I think creates some wild hopes & expectations from people that GOG simply can't follow through on. For example, to use an example Jean-Karlo brought up, prior to the Devil May Cry HD Collection in 2012 the only DMC games that had prior PC ports were 3: Special Edition & 4, so if GOG were to offer pre-HD DMC it would only be those two games, because they can't do anything with DMC1 & 2, as neither had a PC port back in the day. I just worry that, eventually, people will start to realize this in larger numbers & that it could potentially hurt more than help. |
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Bonebrain
 Posts: 55 |
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While there's certainly been turn based games a big issue with games like Fantasian Neo Dimension and Bravely Default 2 is they just look really cheap which turns a lot of people off. Romancing SaGa 2's remake looks a bit better and certainly a huge step up from Emerald Beyond's non-existent production values but overall a lot of those titles are side games. People want the big budget turn based RPG hence why people complain about Final Fantasy becoming action based while turn based gets regulated to the low budget titles. There's also the fact many of these games are remakes. Maybe that's a statement about the industry itself but while Live-A-Live is a fun game it came out in 1994. Just re-releasing old games like SaGa Frontier 2 in 2025 doesn't count as turn-based games being thriving in my opinion. I haven't played the French game yet but at the very least it looks like it has high production values which is probably why its turning heads. Also there is the possibility that since it has a western aesthetic it can attract a larger fanbase where anime aesthetic turns some people off. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
 Posts: 816 Location: PA / USA |
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Very much on-point with that. I think FF7R has been the only recent series that have re-captured the sort of scale and wonderment a PS1 RPG used to afford, however it was an instant "no sale" for a lot of people, that they have action combat and fiddled with some of the story presentation compared to the original FF7. FF7 Rebirth is probably about the only other large-scale (notable, because that new Star Ocean was weird, apparently) RPG world happening in 4K right now, and because it's not turn-based some feel the "vibe" is gone. As such, when I look at Expedition 33, I see a lot of elements in it that I enjoyed from Lost Odyssey back in the day - one of my favorite games/stories ever made. It's not to say there have not been great RPGs out, I love Dragon Quest XI, it's just DQXI doesn't look like FF7R or Expedition 33. I think the dividing line is partly the tone too (Metaphor is VERY anime), in the same way some of the people (myself included) that snub mainline Xenoblade were frothing at the mouth with excitement for a Xenoblade X remaster - the mechs and the more reality-grounded vibe as opposed to a fantasy-anime vibe makes a bit of a difference. Ironically, that's a tonal shift Lost Odyssey was chasing back in the day when it released on Xbox, since Microsoft was trying to aim at the RPG market they'd failed to capture a generation earlier. It's why I'm excited every time someone new tries Wizardry Daphne for the exact same reasons I am for something like Lunacid - you have some really old, niche RPG experiences that have kind of gotten drowned out by larger things in recent years - Dark Souls, Elden Ring, the occasional Mad Overlord remake.... it's nice to have those, but they're going in a bit of a different direction, or in Mad Overlord's case, neglecting to advance the clock forward and offer something new. I've beat my Persona horse to death around here, but even Jean-Karlo bringing up Pokemon neglects to contextualise that Pokemon has been doing everything possible to shed its classic RPG roots since it left the DS behind, and similarly Persona has evolved itself into something that is a faaaaaaar cry from what Megami Tensei started as on the SNES. It's one of the things that made me a smidge sour about Megami Tensei V - it's clearly in its presentation, attempting to grab some of the Persona audience. That's not a bad thing inherently, but I'm looking for more of an 80's-style Akira-esque apocalyptica story as opposed to one featuring a Persona school kid. So kudos to Expedition 33, it looks like it's very deserving of the attention from what I've experienced myself so far. I wonder if it will last in the public consciousness any longer than Wukong seems to have. |
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Kicksville
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Expedition 33 very specifically takes cues from Persona 5 and Like A Dragon. Metaphor just came out. Games that cannot be written off as dinky little low budget titles.
I 100% understand the resentment over people acting like a game in the same category as those is the lone savior of a dying genre for doing things those games just did. That people will ignore or downplay games because they don't fit the current notion of what is "realistic" or "high budget" looking is a blot on the modern shallow hype driven media system, not the fault of a genre that has been around long enough to give Expedition 33 its ideas. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
Posts: 816 Location: PA / USA |
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The first thing that comes to mind while reading that is "wasn't Persona 5 out on the PS3 ages ago though"? You're right that Persona 5 isn't a dinky budget title, but a lot of my modern-day 2025 problem with it is that they've not really refreshed the formula in ages since that PS3 release. It's why I think Strikers was probably the greatest thing to happen to the SMT series - I'd much rather have an action-RPG combat with demons than turn-based at this point, since I liked that particular title so much. My train of thought is simply that I think Expedition 33 is taking these elements, adding a unique spin on them, and most importantly executes them pretty well. The in-combat action bits in particular, and the idea that zones seem to be highly-detailed, artistically, are things that are shockingly hard to actually get in some of these RPGs depending on what generation you look at. People complained FF13 was a long run down a hallway. FF15 is historically a mess for all number of reasons. FF14 is an MMO requiring a subscription. FF16 is.... Final Fantasy LARP'ing as Game of Thrones to a lot of people. So far, Expedition 33 doesn't seem to have any of those weird asterisks associated with it, and that's interesting/notable in a genre where Final Fantasy used to be the industry lead during the PS1 era. |
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AiddonValentine
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I'm definitely tired of the "turn-based" argument because we all know it's BS and it's mostly people relegating their RPG diet to just Final Fantasy and nothing else as well as self-inflicted gaps in historical record-keeping. Seriously, as someone who is old enough to have experienced SqEx's golden age from about 1992 to 2005 they were doing all sorts of weird battle and character progression systems. FF was always the more daring, subversive counterpart to Dragon Quest (not that Horii hasn't been subversive here and there) so of course it was gonna do new stuff. Plus I find talking about the intersection of French and Japanese culture to be a more interesting topic, like how Jean Reno was in Onimusha 3 and how Cobra from Space Adventure Cobra is modeled after Jean-Paul Belmondo (which was huge in France).
-BoF4: This is why I liked GOG more than Steam; it has all the weird stuff that doesn't get enough attention. Of course an award-winning game that sold 10 million copies get a port/remaster, but what about the weirdo game that sold under 100,000 and had some wonky combat quirks where it would break after some exploits? It's also why I appreciate Nintendo putting stuff like New Horizons on Switch Online. Sometimes the weird, but not quite successful game can give you a lot of ideas. -Vlractal: Very interesting. Also, have to appreciate the Crimson Shroud acknowledgement. I do like when RPGs play with tabletop mechanics like literal dice rolling. Anyway, back to think about the Xenoblade X ending because...stuff. A lot of stuff. |
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Silver Kirin
Posts: 1769 |
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[quote="Bonebrain"]
Yeah, I've been noticing that many people tend to regard some of non-Final Fantasy games by Square-Enix as sort of cheap, I think some of the titles that have gotten a worse reputation over time are the HD-2D games, when titles like Octopath Traveller were first revealed many people thought it was a great throwback to old-school Super NES JRPGs, but I think the fact S-E made its sequel, Triangle Strategy and the Live-A-Live and Dragon Quest I, II and III remakes with that style kind of devaluated the HD-2D style, despite the fact that I've heard that the sprite work is actually very labor intensive and costly, but sprite-based games have a sort of stigma attached to them, I still remember people saying that KOF XIII sprites look like something from the Super NES. I don't think we are going to see any big-budgeted turn-based RPG made by Japanese developers, even games like Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor ReFantazio don't look that technically impressive, at least for me, they do have a very appealing artstyle and presentation, which is something that I appreciate. Interestingly, Yuji Horii just recently spoke at Comic-Con Italy and I think that he seemingly revealed that a Chrono Trigger remake is in the works and tons of people in various forums are already dreading that it's going to be an HD-2D, but the thing is that remaking a 16-bit game it's very difficult, I mean, there was the fan-remake of Chrono Trigger in 3D that was taken down by Square-Enix, so that kind of shows that people wanted to play in 3D, butI think the whole Final Fantasy VII Remake Project kind of showed that translated the feel and scope of an old-school JRPG into a modern AAA is a huge demanding task. Even Square-Enix, which is the biggest JRPG maker in Japan doesn't have infinite resources. I've also heard things like, "medieval fantasy JRPGs aren't taken as seriously as Sci-Fi ones, and most of them are published on Nintendo consoles, and since Nintendo consoles are always underpowered they have to develop games that can run on the Switch", don't know if the same things will apply for games developed for the Switch 2. |
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Kicksville
Posts: 1415 |
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That I would mention Metaphor in the same breath, a big budget refreshment of the Persona 5 turn based formula with new elements and a new IP from 2024, only for it to be ignored, feels like a good illustration of my point. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
Posts: 816 Location: PA / USA |
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I've not put as much time into it as I have Yakuza or Persona, so I didn't want to dip into critique when I'm not as familiar. On the point of Yakuza (I've not played the absolute newest two) they get by with ingenious use of characters and activities that make the immediate world feel alive, but back as far as the PS2 and PS3, the worlds themselves were small - just densely packed. It's one of the reasons FF7R gets compared to it a lot - spots of Midgard can be a tad claustrophobic, but they're densely packed with personality, and that goes a long way to keep FF7R from falling into the trap FF13 did. In fact, I'd argue the lack of that sort of dense population (and towns in general) was THE big thing that really soured FF13. I need to give Metaphor some more time. It's in this really unfortunate space where it has two prominent characters in it that look like the protag of P3 and P4, and that really throws me. The dialogue and the world itself are pretty outlandish (that's not necessarily a bad thing....) but while I've got my head up the arse of most anime plot contrivances, the moment that family walks in on the characters gabbing, they have to tap out pretty quick and cant make sense of any of it. Edit: Actually, I'll add too that at NO point am I trying to assert that Expedition 33 is in any way superior to these various games, I'm simply taking note that it's coming out at a VERY opportune and perfect time. We're between FF7R installments, Metaphor has already been out for a bit and heck, Xenoblade X has only been out for a couple weeks and I'm sure there's people that have 100%'d it already. It's interesting to note that above all else, it's the perception of success surrounding Expedition 33 that is so fascinating and timely, given that it executes what it's working with very well. It could have easily been another narrative & technical mess like Forspoken, or it could still fall off hard like Wukong. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 7208 |
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And only in Japan….same as Romancing SaGa 3. |
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FinalVentCard
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 926 |
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This is news to me, because outside of spin-offs and the recent Pokémon Legends: Z-A, all of the mainline Pokémon games are turn-based RPGs. And Legends: Z-A is also a spin-off! The Pokémon games have done plenty to subvert their formula (Sun/Moon's Kahuna challenges replacing the gym leader system, Scarlet/Violet's multi-pronged story approach and turn-based raid battles), but they're still turn-based RPGs. Not even an "at their core", just straight-up turn-based RPGs.
Every time I see people talk about how "RPGs haven't updated their formulas in ages", I ask myself... when was the last time we had a first-person shooter that "shook up the formula"? Where is the "formula-defying" character platformer or puzzle game? Why is it turn-based RPGs that are expected to reinvent themselves?
Don't worry, that one's a total nothing-burger: turns out, Horii hadn't even mentioned Chrono Trigger at all. I can understand people being so resistant to remakes given that people would rather play the original, but also: the original Chrono Trigger has been ported recently. I'd rather creatives get weird with a remake than just have the same thing I could just play right now. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2560 Location: Online Terminal |
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I would bet that most people don't think of Pokemon as a turn-based RPG. They think of Pokemon as "Pokemon" and don't actually have notions or thoughts about how the game (if they even remember it's a game) is presented. Likewise if you asked people to describe a "Mario game" I'd imagine the use of the words "platform" and "action" would be few and far between.
I don't know how specifically this fits within the Clair Obscur discourse but I felt like it was something worth saying out loud. |
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Silver Kirin
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Yeah, I just saw the confirmation. But still, it was kind of telling that the first reaction in various forums for a potential Chrono Trigger remake was hoping that it won't be a HD-2D game. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 7208 |
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I share this same sentiment. I’ve played numerous games in my lifetime with a handful of those games being games I’ve played through multiple times both on the original platform and ports on other platforms. And never have I’ve been too bothered by the few remakes of these games that have come along for making changes here and there. Because as mentioned if you’re going to play a remake that’s 1:1 to the original game why bother playing the remake if you have the original?
Isn’t that more or less what some of the earlier games were? |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2959 |
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That's definitely one way to look at it because Pokemon has always been a multimedia project. It's not just a game, it's supposed to be a brand with the games as the spearhead. It's why it's not jarring at all for the games to switch between turn-based monster RPG, to wildlife photography, to mystery dungeon, to a crossover with Nobunaga's Ambition, to a fighting game. Same thing with Mario touching so many different genres. |
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