Forum - View topicCode Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (TV).
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I think it would have been better if they had spoiler[offed Charles in episode sixteen (which would have followed directly from episode fifteen in a two parter). I mean, they were practically all there, except Marianne and Suzaku.]
Marianne spoiler[should have stayed dead anyway (they butchered her character, turning her from a caring mother to an immature semi-villain). And Suzaku could have been made to make up with Lelouch after the Black Knights turned on Zero, by making the real episode seventeen (where Lelouch begs Suzaku to save Nunnally) occur after the events of the real episode nineteen. Therefore, Lelouch, cast out of the Black Knights, begs Suzaku to save Nunnally, and the two actually team up.] What my version would do is to create a lot of problems. spoiler[But, weren't there already a raft of problems anyway? How can mine be so much worse? Now, what it would also do is give the showdown with Schneizel more episodes, and therefore a better buildup. It wouldn't have felt tacked on, but a legitimate final arc.] |
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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Between Schneizel and Lelouch, I wish Lelouch wins, he must win to fill the power vacuum left by Charles, power vacuums won't exsit because someone or something will surely seize power and fill that vacuum. that someone or something might as well be Lelouch. He can do whatever he wants after he secures full control but meanwhile, he has to remove obsticles at all cost.
I would be very disappointed if Nunnally ends up weilding that "power/authority" either as a monarch or as head of a UN type organisation. She does not deserve such reward and should not live to enjoy it should Lelouch and Schneizel both perish. I have a personal dislike for girl characters without combat ability, damsel in distress, requiring rescue and protection but somehow end up controlling everything just because they are "clean" with high moral standards. I have never seen such things in real life but somehow it happens often in recent Bandai titles. My apologies if I sound harsh but these are just my personal feelings and may not be shared by others. Ok.....I should stop my wild imaginations, Lelouch can still win and Nunnally might not become boss. |
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Jradford17
Posts: 9 |
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I could overlook the rushed feeling on the last few episodes if I didn't think the last ones are going to be the same. It really worries me how many loose ends there are to tie up in this series, not to mention allowing time for action/visuals. That said I still like this title a lot but I might just keep it to series 1, we'll see how they work it.
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Every time somebody says the show is not making sense I have to laugh. Talk about your stock quotes from 10 episodes ago. The shows been damn pretty straighforward since the end of the Geass Cult arc. It has more purpose in the second half then it did in the first, it's just that the first half didn't have the massive bandwagon effect that Tony K. mentioned and that misquoted interview with Taniguchi hadn't seeped into and influenced everyone's mind into thinking that what we are seeing wasn't originally planned and started the trend that people should reject the entirety of R2.
spoiler[The thing is, the show doesn't have a good guy or bad guy like most people seem to think, every character is shades of grey and carries their own personal failings and character flaws, but they seem to believe strongly that their motivations are for the best over everyone elses and the results will be benificial, even if the way in getting their will come at a high price. What you need to look for now is not who is right, an ideal and trope that is prominent in most mecha series that Code Geass has successfully deconstructed for the better, but what is the course of action to bring about a new status quo for the world of Code Geass that was better then the one before the start of the rebellion, that will ultimately win out. Much of what Lelouch did was for nothing as far as his personal quest went, that's part of the irony of it all and is definitely intentional, but that doesn't mean he can't ultimately do something that will benefit the world and help him obtain some peace of mind. That's the struggle we're seeing with him right now, between what he desperately wants and what he now realizes (in his own opinion) what is best. Neither is necessarily a good or proper ideal, but a choice. I think what most people are frustrated over is that his motivations continue to remain hidden and probably won't become apparent until the final episode. I'm willing to wait to see what he has in mind before I fully judge the success or failure of this last arc. In a way the final struggle against Charles and the liberation of Japan was sort of the finale of the series and what we are seeing now is sort of an epilogue and resolution. The death of Charles left a power vacuum and now the world is waiting for a new leader to step up and a new course to be set for the human race and international relations. That's also what this last struggle is about. Personally I don't think it's going to be either Lelouch or Schneizel though, or even Britannia per se that will be the worlds new super power and dominant policy maker. We'll just have to what and see who it is.] I'm still enjoying this series quite a bit, but perhaps that's because I can identify with the course it's taken a little more then most seem to be able to. |
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Exaar
 Posts: 279 Location: Delaware |
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Well, I still like this show. I'm as excited about it now as I was at the end of the first season. And I'm enjoying it much, much more than I was around the episode 9-10 mark. I though 23 was great.
spoiler[I don't know why everyone cared about Cornelia so much to begin with. I never felt she was a particularly interesting or exciting character, and while I agree that she was more or less irrelevant in this season, my reaction to her 'death' was literally "Ha ha." Nunally being alive is fine with me. I remember reading a post in this very thread after episode 18 in which someone postulated the "There are clearly two shuttles" theory. If you go back enough pages you'll probably see it! Clearly there were enough hints given that people could, and did, figure it out, and therefore I don't see her coming back as a cheap move. Frankly, I love all this war stuff. The more big fights and big explosions there are, the happier I am. And I love seeing Lelouch being a dick. The fact that he has good intentions actually kinda ruins it for me, but heck, I'll take it at face value and pretend for once the power of love won't win out in the end. Oh well.  ]
Anyway, I just wanted to pitch in to counter all the negative comments. I still like this show as much as I did at the end of season 1. I still look forward to it as the high point of my anime week. And I am sad that there are only two more episodes. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6921 Location: Kazune City |
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I don't know why, but I still like this series. Even though Gundam Wing called Schneizel and told him they wanted Wu Fei back. I think it's because I've unconsciously adopted a two-drink minimum before watching any episode of Code Geass R2. spoiler[Nunally still being alive?]ROFL!! *metal fists in air*spoiler[Cornelia gunned down by a secret deathtrap straight from Dr. Evil's lair?]AHAHAHAHAHA!
I'll have myself drunk silly after every DVD when they come out 
And despite all the ludicrous developments, I'm still eagerly anticipating each episode as it comes out. So it's still doing something right by me. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I do believe that Code Geass "is" (as opposed to "was") good.
It is still better than Gundam Wing (all style no substance), Gundam SEED Destiny (horrendous), or Gundam 00 (which is pretty but vapid). That said, the quality of the second season has deteriorated markedly. It is no longer better than Gundam SEED, a show which it once outshone. Whereas Gundam SEED got better as time went on (especially between episodes 34 to 49 inclusive), R2 keeps on disappointing me each and every new episode after the sixteenth. The seventeenth was practically a waste of time, the eighteenth was disjointed and reeked of Gundam-style pwnage, and the nineteenth had the contrived plot of the spoiler[Black Knights rebelling against Zero.] And as much as I thought spoiler[Rollo had a nice farewell,] I would have preferred him to stay around longer. The twentieth was hurried and largely absurd, both in events and motivations. The twenty-first was further contrived, with near-incomprehensible motivations and a backstory riddled with plot holes. The twenty-second felt like grasping at straws, with ridiculous levels of pwnage, along with a rather ill-conceived plan on Lelouch's part (along with unhelpfully hostile Black Knights). Then we had the resurrection of spoiler[Nunnally, which just cheapened her "death" and left a bitter taste.] Finally, the latest episode/farce, the twenty-third. We have spoiler[Cornelia's pointless death (befitting a pointless character; and what did she expect Schneizel to do with all those bombs?), Schneizel deciding to be evil (his reasons did not befit his character; he just wanted to screw the world over), Nunnally suddenly unable to tell when Schneizel and her brother are lying to her (and her sudden desire to kill tens of thousands of people), and the Black Knights willingness to go ahead with Schneizel after he blows up hundreds of thousands of people.] Stupid. Just because R2 still is better than average (which isn't that hard to do) does not excuse the massive drop in quality. So while the second season is still eminently watchable, making me wait in eager anticipation for the next episode, it is but a pale shadow of the glory that the first season achieved. And that's a shame. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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This might possibly be the best idea ever. At least the best idea in relation to the R2 season. Unfortunately, I usually watch it right before heading out to work and I think they might object. I'm still enjoying this series, but I have worries over how it's going to come to a satisfying conclusion at the end of it all. Do we actually know officially how many episodes there is going to be? |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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That is probably the main difference in our perceptions, really, since for me that has only been true for 20 and, to a different but lesser extent, 21 and 22. Which isn't to say that I was completely satisfied with absolutely everything else, but despite the rushed pacing I didn't find each new episode more disappointing than the last.
spoiler[I already commented about the other issues elsewhere, so...the emotional stress of the situation is what seems to be affecting Nunnally, really. More than desiring to kill people per se, she considers herself responsible for what her brother has done and wants to bear some of the guilt and weight for defeating him and his forces. A completely rational person might be more cautious, but people can and do overreact when their emotions get out of control, which tends to happen often in this show. Thousands of people who are not on their side, I might add, and though the show could have made them display a little more doubt in the process, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is what ultimately applies here. Schneizel seemingly told the Black Knights the truth about Zero earlier, which makes him out to be a somewhat ruthless (he did use the equivalent of nuclear weapons rather freely) but apparently honorable person in their eyes.]
While that may be putting the first season in a bit too high of a pedestal...I can still see what you mean overall. If I had to rate R2 today, it would definitely be one or two notches below the original. |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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For me it all comes down to the next two episodes, and I am still very much looking forward to them. The things that seem to bother others so much I don't really have a problem with. spoiler[I still find it hard to believe that Nunnaly bieng alive is a negitive issue for a lot of people. Her "death" would have been the most pointless in the enitire series if it had really went down like that.] At this point I have stopped even trying to figure out what will happen, or what actually makes sense, and I am just along for the ride.
The pacing could be better sure. Really though, other than the entire cast deciding that they have to spoiler[martyr themselves], the only major complaint I have is that I do have a few personal issues with how the battle lines have been drawn up since the Charles arc. I was a fairly big fan of Lelouch (I seem to be a little less a fan the longer he hangs out with you know who), but the characters on his side at the moment are mostly the ones I like the least. The last battle scene I was all kinds of not knowing what I wanted to happen. But then maybe that's the point. And hopefully some things will change before the end. Edit- That sounded a lot more negative than I wanted it to. I just wanted to say that in my opinion I don't think R2 is going downhill as much as people seem to think, and that there is still potential for something great. It really does come down to the next couple episodes. |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Considering spoiler[Nunally still being alive was a given by how many clues were actually in episode 18 that there was a decoy ship I don't see why people are making a huge deal out of it. I wasn't even remotely surprised considering I saw the second ship beside hers in the hangar, followed all the clues such as Rohmeyer and Nunally appearing to be on different ships, and noted that Rohmeyer's ship had a complement of Knightmare Frames that she claimed weren't going to be assigned to Nunally's. This more then likely drew attention to the wrong vessel and allowed her to escape.]
I know people think this was an ass pull by the writers, but really, the clues were all there in episode 18 before hand and I even had it all figured out by the end of that one. And the only episodes I thought were really poor were 5, 12 and 20. Other then that the shows still been very solid. It's just that before episode 18 we didn't have that stupid Taniguchi interview that people misquoting. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Code Geass is still good, just not anywhere near as good as it should and could be. The series has had problems (for me) as far back as the midpoint of the first season, but they were relatively minor and isolated at the time. The last two episodes were worse (nasty pacing) but nothing unfixable or difficult to overlook. R2 started off fairly good, but it started going downhill when Shirley died and the problems started seriously hurting after episode 22. Its still enjoyable in some ways, but its a C+ when it used to be an A+.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I don't quite care how truthful the interview was, or how much it was misquoted. No, what that interview did was make me think. All those times I saw plot holes or contrivances that stretched my suspension of disbelief, and yet dismissed them. It was like I had been seeing the dots (all the individual flaws) all along, but then was inspired to connect them up to see the bigger picture (a season that was poorer that it should have been). Suddenly I saw how the flaws were related, how they hinted at a wider, systemic and endemic problem. And I, a Code Geass fanboy, got understandably very angry. This season could have been so much more. Barring two stunning final episodes, all I am likely to take away from this season is that it is to the first season what Gundam SEED Destiny was to Gundam SEED. I trusted this season, put my faith in it, but it seems Sunrise have stuffed up another hit show with a poor sequel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What I hate most about spoiler[Nunnally's "death" is three things. First, bringing her back has cheapened all the emotional turmoil that Lelouch and Suzaku subsequently went through. The second is the deception that went with it. Honestly, when you have the official site saying she's dead, she should be darned dead, body or no body. The third, is that she has come back a poorer character than before. She, like Marianne, was better off dead. Bringing her back, all primed to kill anyone, is just ludicrous. Yes, she only had Schneizel and his faction to talk to for a couple of months, with them whispering things into her ear. But the Nunnally that we all knew before would not have said, upon meeting her true brother for the first time since her "death", "I am your enemy". No attempt to get Lelouch's side of it, to ascertain if what Schneizel was telling her was true. She just laid on the hostility. I suppose Nunnally really did die in that episode, because the person we are seeing right now is not her.] Lastly, Kallen and the Black Knights. spoiler[I thought that her conversations with Nunnally (and her one-sided nature this season, being a Lelouch fangirl) would have allowed her, of all people, to see through Lelouch's facade. But no, she has to be his enemy. In a wider note, I think the Black Knights turning on Lelouch was one of the stupider moves of the season, simply because it has made all of them out to be ungrateful to what Lelouch achieved for them. In a single masterstroke, I went from cheering all of them on against the evil Britannian Empire to wishing they were all dead. Kaguya labeling Lelouch as the "Emperor of Atrocities" just takes the cake. I don't see how the show is going to fit in Toudoh and the Black Knight's attack on Damocles (as depicted in the opening) without more serious plot contrivances.] |
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Westlo
 Posts: 1684 |
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S2 is a train wreck, not to say it's not still entertaining but the difference in quality between s1 and s2 is like night and day.
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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More like the difference between night and afternoon to me, but I'm aware my position is not exactly in the majority here (somewhat novel, in a way).
I have to say that the interview (its direct translation, not the ever-more-famous summary, FWIW) also allowed me to better understand why certain things (not all the same ones on your list) didn't work too well, plus obviously the explanation behind the rushed pacing...but I don't think that even the optimal version of R2 would have been without at least a few of those flaws. The first season also had several plot contrivances or holes, even if lesser ones, and a few did in fact stretch suspension of disbelief. Recall the old reactions to R1 22-25 and their related twists, not to mention 15-16. The cries of "train wreck" are not new to R2, by any means, even if they have multiplied and have more substance (depending on your POV...I see no need to use the word, but whatever). Sometimes people overlook that for the sake of making R1 look a million times better, instead of just a dozen or a hundred (I kid...sort of). The difference is that there was usually (not always) a little more time for explanations and attention to detail, which became harder to handle in R2 with all ideas crammed into it. Keeping that in mind...again, I've lowered my expectations, but not to nothing.
Not to the point of erasing it, but I agree...that's my one complaint about it (since I am pretty much ok with its actual in-universe explanation). The show could have avoided it altogether and left the new status quo as it was, or just not even tried to pull it off.
I don't blame them too much for this though...there were also some hints in the air, that allowed for the theories which later turned out to be true.
The exact wording of the line was meant for dramatic purposes, as I took it. The person in question did try to do just that the very next episode...and look who proceeded to answer and how.
Kallen spoiler[actually had, and arguably still has even if she appears to be resolute on the surface, doubts about the whole affair...but fully seeing through the facade requires some understanding of why Lelouch is doing what he's doing, and she received no answers when an attempt was made to get some. I'd say she tried, at least. There's also the matter of her own feelings, as well as what Lelouch is publicly doing, which complicates matters. It's one thing to label yourself "evil" and publicly work to free Japan from Britannian rule, and another to do the same thing with the opposite public objective, to "conquer the world" as Britannia.]
spoiler[Schneizel revealing his plans -accidentally, willing or due to sabotage- is what I'd suppose is going to make that possible, whether it's done convincingly or not ] |
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