Forum - View topicIs anime really subpar to Western cartoons in animation?
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Samuknight
Posts: 36 |
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One of the criticism towards anime is that its animation is subpar in quality. In particularly criticized are constant re-use of stock footage (particularly in transformation and attack sequences), the lower frames per second, less detailed animation (in particular lack of stuff like clothes flying along with wind movement), and in particular the fact anime doesn't really draw lips to match dialogue when characters are speaking and lack of accurate emotional expression (such as changes in facial muscles when someone is showing anger, etc).
Now before this turns into a flame, let me point out I generally PREFER American cartoons over anime. Most of my favorite animated series are American classics such as Scooby Doo:Where Are You and The Flintstones. So I'm not defending anime because I'm a Japanophile or Otaku. With that pointed out, I notice a lot of criticism lately towards anime because of animation quality. In particular the things I listed in the first paragraph (lack of lips and mouth movement that accurately reflect speech in particular and overuse of stock footage in particular). Not just from pro-Western cartoon aficionados but even anime fans (including Otakus) are saying that anime lacks the details, fluidity, frames, and in general overall basic animated movements "found in Western cartoons". They also point out that there is no more reason for anime to be so cheap because budgets are much higher than the past as opposed to the 60s and 70s when Japan was still recovering from the War. Quite frequently I always hear "Sailor Moon Crystal lacks the details and fluidity of Adventures of Gumball" or "The Simpsons had far superior mouth-to-lip movement than Dragon Ball Z ever had" and so on. I got huge problems with these assumptions. First and foremost to comment on the 60s and 70s, as someone who's been rewatching Childhood memories such as Bugs Bunny shorts and Johnny Quest, I will point out that there are so many [expletive] examples of stock footage and animated with limited details in the West (specifically America's) Golden Age of animation. Almost everytime Quick McDraw whacked his guitar around or swung on the rope as he's doing some heroics, flatout they are reusing the same scenes from the first several episodes. As in after going up to 20 episodes, You'll finally recognize it and come out after the current episode ends with a "OMG swinging that rope-the backgrounds, colors, details, lip movements, everything are the same as in episode 3!" reaction. If you're binge watching, you'll notice this by episode 9. In addition the character animation are quite slower in flames and less fluid once you been watching the show for a while. To quote a series that has a reasonably large production (for the time), Johnny QUest often mixes new details (like a new island) and mixes it with old background (as in using the same scene with the same exact boats, cloud formations, etc.) If you observe completely newly drawn scenes such as walking in a ruins under rainy/windy conditions, you'll notice that many real life details are missing. The floor doesn't form puddles, the plants aren't moving despite the windy weather, etc. Even the action is so poorly detailed it looks like stock footage at times (even though many of them are actually newly drawn scenes). Just two examples but with these and many other old cartoons, I can point out the West was roughly about equal with anime in terms of budget issues and using "lazy tricks" to save money. Now with modern animation, these complaints irk me far more. Now note that many of the times, series that are being used to prove Western animation's supremacy are almost universally Spongebob, Disney, The Simpsons? And any less well-known shows often include series on Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon's block? While anime often being used to prove Japan has inferior animation techniques are often obscure series, often in niche genres and aimed specifically at Otakus, such as High School DxD and Freezing? In otherwords I strongly disagree with the notion of Western cartoons having superior quality in drawing of animated movements because people are always picking any random anime and comparing it to the CREAM of the CROP the west has to offer; or at least shows that managed to stand on its own long enough to gain popularity for higher budget. I mean how come no one (appropriately) compares Super Duper Sumo (a low budget and short series) to other equally relatively unknown low budget series like Queen's Blade or Red Photon Zillion? Dragon Ball Z and Slayers gets all the bashing for its early episodes being notoriously full of BS animation cheap tricks. Uhh the early episodes of Spongebob Squarepants had a very "low quality" look to it and I learned Nickelodeon wasn't even sure if the series would last 10 episodes in its first year of syndication. As Spongebob exploded in popularity the animation had a magnificent improvement in details, colors, and other animation elements. I mean I've just finished Slayers Evolution-R and man the quality budget of it and Revolution is far superior to previous seasons; even taking into account year gaps for Revolution to air, the first Slayers TV series had a low production value even within the standards of newly aired anime. When I was watching Spongebob before I caught up to the new episodes airing this year, I was thinking literally the same thing as Slayers Revolution of how the early season looks so cheap and was full of stock footage and the like. I also notice you never see "stupid" series used to compare. I mean South Park has far worse animated details than even hentai series by unknown studios! I'll grant South Park is deliberate but no one ever says the same about series that were intentionally made to look cheap (even if they got far higher productions) such as Boogiepop Phantom. So I seriously call BS here. Its not so much that Western animation standards is superior but when people make comparisons they are always choosing successful series such as The Simpsons or big productions like Disney and cherrypicking unknown anime series (or cherrypicking parts of the series rather than comparing the entirety). I can point out to so many unknown cartoons in addition to Super Duper Sumos such as Street Shark that utilize animation quality similar to series frequently criticized such as Sailor Moon (many which even use far more stock footage and have far worse animation than even 1980s budget anime like Red Photon Zillion!). Also this comparison is often flawed because........ Notice they always use AMERICAN CARTOONS? They're using the works of a nation that is known to easily be second place in dominating the animation industry after Japan (even at times going equally in influence and commercial dominance, if not outright far beating the Japanese anime industry by a large margin in certain genres and markets). Western animation fans and even anime fans who believe cartoons are superior conveniently cherrypick works from a nation that time and again produced mega box office hits that still dominate movie gross today such as Frozen and The Lion King. I mean if Western animation as a whole had superior animated details, how come we rarely hear about French, Italian, British, and Russian works being phrased as superior to anime? Other than a few hits in the UK that was imported into America (such as The Adventures of Gumball), its almost always exclusively American shows being used to show off the Western animation industry's superiority to anime in animation quality. Having seen works from Europe, I can tell you the average cartoon made int that continent made have far worse quality than even low quality budget anime series like Freezing and Toiei's productions. For example the only French cartoon worthy of being superior to big Japanese productions like Ghibli Studio's are modern Asterix the Gaul series (and even these have episodes of terrible animation qualities ever now and than) and big production blockbusters such as the recent Little Prince 3D CGI flick. What do you think? I firmly hold my opinion a lot of cherrypicking of cream of the crop and lack of taking account of sturgeon's law is why this claim of anime being far lower in quality is utter BS. And remember I generally PREFER Western animation and most of my favorite animated franchises are American such as Scooby Doo, The Flintstones, and The Adventures of Gumball. |
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Philmister978
Posts: 530 |
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I think the problem here is the average mindset of non-Japanese viewers. Me, having watched a huge chunk of Anime and cartoons, have a completely different viewpoint. That is, both have their high points and low points.
Limited animation with anime is a mixed bag, but I've usually noticed that they pull it off much better than any Hanna-Barbera or Filmation series. Sure there's those that slip through the cracks (modern examples including Dragon Ball Super and High School DxD). But Japan normally does it to better effect. You also have to take into account the budget of an anime is about half as much as that of a cartoon (again, there's exceptions, like Gurren Lagann) But again, it's the norm for an anime to have less of a budget. There's also the (lack of) manpower Japan has these days with all the anime being produced at the same time. American shows don't have this problem these days (or at least, not as severely as Japan). The other factor you have to take in is the amount of time each format tend to get per episode. Anime, at best, take at least four months to produce and animate (Usually less in the case of the latter). American shows like The Simpsons tend to take a year or so. And that's before getting into CGI shows like the Ninja Turtles reboot. That's not to say that all anime is well animated. As mentioned in the above paragraph, there's less time put into an average episode, so whether it's any good or horrible in that department is a crapshoot. Then you have to take into consideration that most, if not all, anime and North American cartoons outsource. Which will produce uneven results. As for American shows having better animation... Honestly, aside from there being more frames of movement, there isn't a huge difference. The Simpsons for example, with the animation being on par with, if not slightly lower than that of your standard high-profile anime or prime time series, just more "on model". And Family Guy is even worse. Really though, it all just comes down to preference. I personally think that if it has bad animation, it has bad animation. The country of origin doesn't concern me. You also got to remember that the Japanese animation industry was built around limited animation and lower budgets, America's initially wasn't. Which means that most people tend to have higher expectations when it comes to animation here than it does there. I personally don't expect Disney quality when watching an anime (or any TV cartoon, really), but I also don't expect it to be super low budget like Filmation either. There's a fine line between those two. And in case you're wondering why most people (like myself) use American cartoons as their examples as opposed to European ones. That's actually very simple- Not many of them make it to our shores (internet doesn't count). And if they do, they tend to be either Co-productions with other countries (like how Oban was between France and Japan, or that Felix the Cat movie from 1990), or fade into obscurity. Sure you got some notable shows (like Wakfu, Code Lyoko, Mondo TV's output and, to a lesser extent, Captain Pronin). But they're few and far between. The animation itself varies big time, some looking better than anything Japan or North America puts out. Other times, they just resort to Flash or substandard Korean contractors. It all depends on both the show and the talent. Same with anything animated. |
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louis6578
 Posts: 1909 |
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I'm gonna make this short. No.
Sure, the greatest Western Cartoons of all time (Gravity Falls, Avatar/Korra, the entire DCAU, and even some of the better episodes of Futurama) are superior to some highly acclaimed anime like Love Live and Dragonball. However, I've yet to see an American series that comes close to the level of beauty that anything I ranked as "Masterpiece" does. Find me a movie as good as Magnetic Rose that's a western animated one, and I'll watch it. |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1828 Location: South America |
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The level of detail and quality of animation in Japan is much higher when the budget allows (Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works). Not only it more physical (objects have momentum) but also even show the effects of wind and other stuff like that (Princess Mononoke for example).
It's, however, true that framerates of typical shows are higher in western series, which is cultural as well. One should notr that anime is chracterized by much higher levels of detail which makes it harder to draw many frames as well. Of course in terms of artistic quality there is not remotely a comparison between stuff like Utena, Spirited Away or EVA and any western cartoons. This should be obvious to any experienced animation fan. |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4830 |
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Scooby and the Flinstones? :/
The animation in every Hanna-Babera cartoon is an absolute joke to me. It's so freaking cheap. 
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5226 |
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^
I always chalk it up to their respective eras of production. The Flintstones, if I recall correctly, was supposed to be the cartoon equivalent to The Honeymooners. |
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NearEasternerJ1
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No it doesn't. It just moves fast. Fast moving=/=fluid or Hanna Barbera cartoons would be the best animated shows ever. Drawings do matter. Afro Samurai is still the best animated JP TV show in terms of movement and drawing count. Fate/Zero is also overrated in terms of animation. It wasn't that good. The fight with Kiritsugu and Kirei was not well animated at all. Frame rate is part of animation. Higher frame rates usually mean smoother transitions. Low frame rates entail the opposite. How about lip syncing? Facial expressions? Hand movements? You can't count on both hands the amount of anime with proper lip syncing. Also, the "artistic quality" bullshit is just you cherry picking. I could pull out 3 western cartoons and movies like Batman TAS, Justice League and Young Justice and compare them to three garbage anime. Bias much? Chiibi, most anime is like HB, if not worse. At least HB shows have lip syncing |
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Samuknight
Posts: 36 |
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Lets be honest it really depends on the show. Many criticisms you point out in, particular bodily movements sucha s lip sync and facial expressions, are actually unrealistic, if not non-existent in many American cartoons (note I said AMERICAN, nevermind the entirety of Western cartoons). For example you point out Hana Barbara. Well other than the major hits and specifically big budget series such as Flintstones, Scooby Doo, and Johnny Quest, have terrible lip syncing or even nonexistent ones. A few example such as 2 Stupid Dogs, Cow and Chicken, Johnny Bravo, Quick Draw McGraw (though it got better in the later episodes after the series surpassed expected ratings enough to last around 2 seasons). Same with other flaws such as hand expression and emotional bodily movements. The frame thing is overblown, to start with its only a 4-6 difference. Sure this is a big deal with video games (where the frames affect how responsive the in-game system is with the players actions) but for something you are watching its rather minimal. Especially since both anime and Western animation rarely reach more than 15 FPS, which when compared to the movie industry's 20-22 FPS standards, is really slow and lacking in detail. Both West and Japan animated productions are guilty of speeding the animation up to hide the low number of frames. IN otherwords other than your big Disney blockbuster and latest Ghibli Studio flick, Western animation and Anime BOTH lag far behind other mediums (in other [expletive] SUCKS compared to the frame stndards in live TV, film, games, etc). Totally agreed on the artistic quality (which is why the best western animation takes up more of my top favorites list than most of the best anime). I must point out though that anime still wins in artistic quality area with its diversity in various genres and the fact your run-of-the-mill (NOTE: NOT masterpieces such as The Last Airbender, big hits like Cat-Dog, or long-running series eg South Park and Regular Show) production tends to have superior quality than say your average American Cartoon. We're not counting series specifically aimed at very young kids (I'm not talking about NickToons or Cartoon Network stuff like Jimmy Neutron and Powerpuff Girls but stuff like Arthur). Its a telling thing that Tokyo Pig manages to be far more hilarious to make adult viewers laugh out loud despite being for the same target audience such as Caillou and Doraemon manages to be far more heartwarming and exhibits the virtue of Friendships much better than Baby Looney Tunes. Even most of the spectacular American stuff that touches dark themes such as War and genocide tend to downplay such mature elements and avoid overtly showing towns getting massacred, etc. Hell they even completely avoid discussing anything related to murder or human experiments, etc if supposedly such stuff should have happened following an incident (what I mean by this is how Full Metal Alchemist showed a girl with a baby and while she never mentions directly rape, at least she tells the protagonist she was violated indirectly and the baby was a result). Excepting stuff aimed at adult viewers like Spawn and stuff trying to push over the limit such as Avatar and 90s Batman cartoons, you won't even hear something like that raped girl telling Edward she was raped without directly stating she was so. So while the Best American animation can easily match up to Japan's best (and surpass it), if we take your average low-budget production (I'm going easy here because I want to say average quality but I'll stick to low productions), anime series overall far surpass the typical mediocre works of American cartoons. Now Note I specifically been using the word "American". Add in European and Russian works? Pretty much a curbstomp in anime's favor. The only nations who can hope to send works effectively capable of comparing to anime are Canada (and this nation's works tend to be collaborations with American companies or primarily targeted to American audiences thug their cream of the crop can easily be mistaken for American), United Kingdom (same as UK albeit on a much lesser extent and their CLaymation films however surpass anything America or Japan made as far as Claymation style goes), and France (and this is limited to their big budget feature films and Asterix the Gaul cartoons). All other Western animation(other than a few works made by said nation's equivalent of Pixar/ Disney)? Japan wins pretty much without difficulty. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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To my understanding Hanna Barbara were the creators of limited animation and famous for it.
Otherwise, I would say no. One of the main reasons I'm not into western animation much anymore is the visuals. Animation is a visual medium, but every cartoon than comes out these days looks very simplistic and unappealing. I'm not sure how to put it other than anime generally looks like it's done by an artist or director with the level of detail put into it and the cinematography in how shots are set up. Cartoon Network recently aired a cartoon Supernoobs, and when Toei previews Mahou Tsukai Precure, I can't help but side with the later one based on visuals alone. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4644 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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It all goes through Korea anyway
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Jose Cruz
Posts: 1828 Location: South America |
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Well, its a rather obvious fact that Japanese animation aimed at children is much more psychologically sophisticated than Western children and adult stuff: Princess Tutu, for instance, is on a whole another league of sophistication than anything on Western TV aimed at children and almost anything aimed at adults (which Western TV live action series exhibits that degree of sensibility and intelligence? I cannot recall any). In The Otaku Encyclopedia a former Gainax president said that this divergence occurred due to the entry of several "academics" into the Japanese animation industry such as Takahata, who raised the artistic bar of animation, also the fact that manga became popular among an older crowd already in the 1960's. This divergence is also due to intrinsic cultural differences: in Japan in heavy metal music they do stuff like mix ballads with super heavy stuff, things that would be impossible in the US due to taboos as explained by Martin Friedman. Same with animation: in the US talented people go to work in other mediums than animation, while in Japan the talented people like Takahata don't suffer from the taboo of working in the medium.
Those are Western taboos: animation cannot do this, cannot do that, etc. Japanese animation has a strong Western following precisely because it lacks those tabbos.
Well, from a movie like Princess Mononoke it's animation far surpasses American animation in physical realism: in the way it handles momentum. Disney's animation has a lot of frames but the movement appears rather badly made: the characters look like bags of plastic filled with water. I don't see anything really impressive there to be honest. I don't understand the praise some people give to US big budget animation, which suffers from excessive movement: people are not vibrating their entire bodies all the time like gelatin. Like this clip: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RW5n4sIOj9s, I don't see anything impressive there, in fact it looks pretty amateurish compared to some TV animation like K-On!, well maybe because I don't have any sympathy for that rubber style Disney has. This looks far better animation to my eyes: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oqju2mB_0GE, now that's some impressive animation even if it has a lower framerate. In fact some recent TV animation looks even more impressive than Miazaki's because of the high level of detail, like sound euphonium: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xl3vPATbVM, although it's obvious it uses a lot less frames than Disney does it achieves a much better overall effect with much higher levels of detail in the movement of the clothing they are wearing for example. Disney animation looks very inefficient: costs a lot of labor and does not look very good by comparison, although obviously Sound Euphonium had 20 years of digital technology and advances in animation techniques to look that good on a TV budget. |
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Nyron
Posts: 164 |
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I'm not reading all of this crap. Learn to make points in 20 words or less.
The answer is that anime's animation quality is, in fact, objectively worse than US and European animation. It has to do with the fact anime is animated by slaves on an insane schedule while Western animation takes months to make per episode. Anime compensates by having more unique audiovisual direction: cooler cinematography, fancier backgrounds, better soundtracks and more detailed, well-thought-out design work. The actual animation quality is either horrible or super-radical-sakuga, which is in and of itself a technique to make anime stand out. There aren't many series these days where the animation is great across the board to the point where you don't need a "here's the part where the quality jumps up 20x!!" gimmick. Rage of Bahamut: Genesis was a good example of a show that definitely rivaled the best in Western animation, but that was because its budget was so bloated and they probably had infinite production time. I think anime at its best, in movies and OVAs, is better than Western animation at its best, because Western animation tends to lack the attention to detail in terms of definite characters, settings and action sequences. So you get series like Diebuster and movies like Tekkonkinkreet and Redline that have all the visual flair of Asia with the Western budgets and dev time to back it up. But those are few and far between. this is a nonargument and comes down to style preference tbh, since the two are almost incomparable Ping Pong is way more visually amazing than say, Futurama, but Ping Pong had a ittybitty budget and its animation was actually terrible, and mostly made of stills and low-detail sequences. Japan has always been better at doing more with less in general. Edit: OP is comparing action series to Spongebob. The key is that no one cares about the animation quality in Spongebob because it's not integral to the show. When you have a serial action series where fluid movement and detail matter, then yes, the animation matters. Because it's an action series and not a comedy that could get away with being a slideshow. |
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12skippy21
 Posts: 785 Location: York, England |
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This. Though your post was over 20 words. Anyway, to me it is all about the story, animation or not. Sure, western animation has not tried to match Japan's (though I would say this does a disservice to Pixars better stuff, How to Train your Dragon movies, French animation etc) but I would say the opposite in regards to TV and movies. Media is media, if the feeling it is aiming for comes across, then it is successful regardless of its format. |
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Gatherum
 Posts: 773 Location: Aurora CO |
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So I hate to be the simplistic guy here, but I'm just going to honestly say that I don't think it matters. At all.
I know absolute shit about animation, its technical aspects, and why western animation could be definitively said to be better than eastern animation or vice-versa. What I say here could very well be dismissed as aesthetic preference. To me, however, anime trumps nearly everything coming out of the US these days by a wide margin due to art direction alone, something that has no direct relation to movement, but can make the latter much harder to accomplish. Frankly, I can't really name a recent example of a predominantly two-dimensional American-animated production, film or TV series or what-have-you, that raises the bar either above its contemporaries or that of the best examples of anime that we get to see today. The whole medium is pretty much stagnant, featuring flat characters (and flat designs to go with them), overly simplistic and "cartoonish" background art, low runtime, forgettable plotlines, and the like. The last qualifying western-animated work that really blew me away was Titan A.E., and about half of the assets in that film, if not more, were CGI anyway. Maybe another case could be made for Avatar--I dunno, I never watched it. After that, it's been CGI up the ass, and even that doesn't tend to look or feel much different with each passing decade. Character movements get a little smoother and/or snappier and textures get a little more detailed, but that's about it for progress. Meanwhile, in Japan, you've got studios like Kyoto Animation, Production I.G., and Ufotable practically churning out veritable (computer-assisted) hand-drawn eye-candy for us to consume every year. Sound! Euphonium was probably the best-looking thing I saw this year, and it was a [expletive] slice-of-life affair with a musical angle and yuri overtones. Given its content, it didn't need to do jack shit to satisfy the otaku community other than not look like complete ass. Thankfully, what we got instead was your usual exercise in Kyo-Ani paying particular attention to the colour palette, subtle shifts in facial expressions and body language, and a lighting engine that would get a nod from Crysis (to use an old benchmark). It at least attempted to make the playing of its featured orchestral instruments look genuine (I leave it to the music buffs among us to decide on whether or not they actually were), and it offered us a story about a collective of young musicians who would eventually come to want to be good enough to go somewhere. It's so compelling for something so far from being high-concept that one can forget that it's visually two-dimensional. I believe a column was just recently written on why Kyo-Ani always wins, and most of you who read it know what I'm talking about. Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying western animation is shit, or that anime doesn't have its fair share of unimpressive tripe. Still, even its lower-budget or unambitiously average productions have a bit of gold in them--like Shana's Flame Haze transformations, or Claymore's...Claymores tapping into their Yoma powers. There's usually at least something interesting to look forward to, and beyond that, it just feels like it, as a medium with storytelling potential, is given some credit and taken a bit seriously. What compulsion do I have to watch something like Teen Titans Go!, Johnny Test, or Phineas and Ferb? Sure, their frame rates are faster or whatever, but their actual content is downright meaningless. I give something like The Amazing World of Gumball a bit more leniency for at least trying to offer some charm to go with its particular brand of ridiculousness, but even it is guilty of an episodic structure and stereotypically "kid" conflicts. Meanwhile, here's Kill la Kill making me give a damn about what is, at the end of the day, a completely contrived plot about the fight against a fashion empire and its alien-infested garments. It's so [expletive] stupid, but it's so damned earnest and without boundaries in its comedy and drama that I can't call it anything short of amazing. I don't know whether or not one trumps the other in the technicalities of its production process, but ultimately, it just doesn't matter. Anime wins because it progresses, as a medium, from year to year, show to show, episode to episode, minute to minute. Attempts are made to entice the viewer towards humanising and connecting emotionally with its characters, and whether it does so at a mere 15 FPS or not, these productions just look better. Detailed. Cared for. They look like they move better, whether by way of the immense detail or some cheap trick. Don't know--don't care. And I think that's pretty much the goal. |
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Nyron
Posts: 164 |
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Lots of people ITT confusing story content and art style with animation quality. You'd think people who spend their lives watching a talking about anime would know more about its production process.
Because yeah, I'd love to discount KyoAni for continuously wasting their talent putting out trash slice of life shows with bad art styles and stories about nothing, but that has nothing to do with their animation quality. anime also does not improve with time lmao Just like Western animation, it was in it prime in the late 90's, got real-bad production-wise for a while and is just now finding its footing again. You pretty much just look at Bebop and how it will eternally look incredible because of its hand-drawn everything, then look at Gungrave which suffers from more ugly digital animation from that era, and then you look at select episodes of Space Dandy, which show off what the best in the biz can do these days. As a mirror, you can look at Hey Arnold which had very good art and complex set pieces, then for a while there we got flash-made trash like johnny test, and now we have Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, etc. |
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