Forum - View topicQuestions Miyazaki/Disney
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JonnyLambarta
Posts: 3 |
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Hey there
Im a media student at the University of Lincoln in England and im writing a dissertation on the rise of animes popularity in the West focusing mainly on Disneys aquisition of Miyazakis works for distribution in the West. I know im a newbie and you guys have probably already discussed this to death but I wondering about your thoughts on the whole thing and if some of you could answer a few questions if you have any spare time. I've done a lot of research on the topic but i was hoping to get some actual fan answers to include in my work I understand some of these questions could solicit whole essays themselves but just a few sentences or even one would be great. What attracts you to anime? How do you feel about animes rise in popularity in the west? Do you feel it will change or destroy animes integrity or do you think that it might open the way for interesting hybrids with American animators? Are American companies just exploiting the anime aesthetic? How do you feel about anime such as Pokemon? How do you feel about Disney/Miyizaki deal, is this a good or a bad thing? Do you think he could be influnced in any further films he makes with the knowledge that his work will reach a larger world audience? Do you think other animators could cater their work with one eye on a western audience? Where do you see anime going in the future? thats it, absolutely any input any of you could give me would be an enormous help to me and id be enternally grateful. thanks Jonathan Lancaster [email protected] |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4663 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I used to come up with generalized answers until I figured out that what attracts me to an anime varies on a show by show basis, and a lot of the answers you'd get from other people (adult-oriented cartoons that aren't comedies, serious, mature, philosophical, arcing storylines) frankly don't apply to the anime I prefer, which are mainly comedies and are mainly just as episodic as something like King of the Hill, about my favourite American cartoon. If you want to read the story about how I became an anime fan, I think I wrote a nice enough summary here.
I think anime, aside from a handful of kiddy franchise anime, has gone from being "underground" to being simply "niche", and I don't think there will ever be a huge breakout hit with North American adults that will make anime no longer "niche".
I see it being one of a myriad of influences, and the stuff like Loonatics looks to be just as influenced by American comic books as it is anime. As for the hybrids, I'm not against the idea, but I can't think of any that have been done or are in the works that are really "my bag", unless you call the ancient Toei-animated G.I. Joe a "hybrid". (I don't think I'll be interested much in the new Gonzo G.I. Joe, unless they have as many comedy episodes as the old one.)
I'm fine with it, though I view the popularity of that and Yu-Gi-Oh, neither of which are quite as popular as they once were, as being popular as "kids' cartoons that just happen to be Japanese in origin" rather than being popular as anime, and some of the kids that watched those shows will become anime fans as adults, but most won't, just as most people around my age (30) watched Smurfs and He-Man as children, but very few of them grew up to be adult fans of animation, especially animation beyond Shrek, the Fox prime-time stuff and the non-anime Adult Swim content. (I am, but I recognize that I am the exception, not the rule.) I also don't think there will be another Japanese cartoon that will be quite as popular with kids Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh in the near future. I'm not saying "never again", I'm sure something else like that will come along from Japan at some point in time, it's just that I don't see anything like those franchises currently on the horizon. Naruto will almost certainly be "the new Dragonball Z", but DBZ, as popular as it was, was still relatively niche compared to the massive popularity of Pokémon circa 1999.
It's a good thing. I got my favourite Ghibli film, Kiki's Delivery Service, on DVD in Japanese with English subtitles (and with an above-average dub). Despite the critical acclaim, I don't care so much for either of the two films fom Miyazaki I've seen made since the deal came into effect in 1996, Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, but that's because I feel that Miyazaki takes himself too seriously as an artist and "national treasure" and adds layers of subtext to his films I find extraneous and pretentious. I prefer the straightforwardness of his earlier work. I don't think that has much of anything to do with Disney's funding, I just don't care as much as some people do for the direction he went post Porco Rosso. Anyway, I'm not concerned about Miyazaki , who I think maybe has one more film in him before actually retiring (for real), at least as director, making his films too much for an American audience as I don't think Miyazaki will get much more popular in North America than he already is, where his films are very popular by anime standards in limited release but will never come close to being "Shrek popular" or even just "Atlantis popular".
Probably, as long as they realize that it will only be a certain niche in the west that appreciates their work.
The popularity will either plateau very soon, if it's not happening already, constrict slightly but remain a viable niche, or the bubble will burst completely. I tend to take the middle view. I know some people take the "will continue getting more and more popular, BOOYAH!" view, but I think that's the "Disco Stu Fallacy", where the popularity of something keeps growing at a steady rate, and I don't think that view, optimistic as it is, is terribly realisitic. |
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JonnyLambarta
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thanks very much Tenchi i really appreciate your input, some interesting points there for me to think about.
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ac_dropout
Posts: 88 Location: Newark, NJ |
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That the art form has demographic are very well defined. So consistently find a story within your age group, interest, sex just be looking at the art. This could also be the drawback since nothing is original as they say.
Makes anime more easily accessible. It is just too bad they don't broadcast in Japanese language on the SAP (second audio program) and so people can just turn on Close Caption, for the subtitle viewing.
That's already happening with American companies co-producing shows during the production stage, like Vampire Hunter D and a few other shows. Yes there are many shows in the US that use Japanse techniques now in their animation. But that is just a fact of any evolving art, especially popular media.
A property gear toward younger demographic with a huge merchandising potential. A real cash cow during its peak.
Win-Win situation for both parties involved. Strong distribuiton and allow Ghibli to focus on the production end. However, I find Miyizaki more recent works to be somewhat out of touch with his core audience. I fear he his becoming irrelevant with his latest works. He trying to make these arthouse films and cater to a mass audience in anime.
I think anime in general will try to seek a global audience, since the Japanese local economy is somewhat soft and rising cost of animation force production house to seek foriegn investors and markets for their survival. I think as with most things in the world China will play a big factor. Since with its potential of being the worlds largest market, Japanese animation studios will try to create vehicles that cater to the China audience. You might see more hybrids Japanese hybrid, similar to USA hybrids "Avatar" or "Jackie Chan" popping up. |
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red stranger
 Posts: 184 |
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What attracts you to anime?
Adult themes, a large variety, and it sure beats watching "reality" shows. Also the animation is excellent (at least in most of the stuff I watch). How do you feel about animes rise in popularity in the west? It's good because it means there's more available and the prices are going down, and it seems to have opened up the way for other foreign animation, like "Triplet of Belleville". Popularity has it's bad points, like most of the stuff that's gotten into the mainstream is kid's stuff like Pokemon etc... Do you feel it will change or destroy animes integrity or do you think that it might open the way for interesting hybrids with American animators? I think that yes, some anime creators in Japan may change their work so that it will sell better outside of Japan, but at the end of the day, Japan is stiill their main market. I think the popularity of Hollywood movies and TV will do far more damage to anime, then anime's popularity here... As for hybrids, meh. The only one that I would like to see would be Pixar working with Ghibli, but that doesn't look like it would happen soon. Are American companies just exploiting the anime aesthetic? Yes, and in the worst way. Hollywood is taking anime cliches without also bringing some of the things that are truly appealing about anime. Instead of taking a hint and making something as powerful as Grave of the Fireflies or as offbeat as Tokyo Godfathers, we get Teen Titans and Totally Spies. How do you feel about anime such as Pokemon? Eh. it exists. I'm not the target market for those kinds of shows, though. I find some anime fans seem to hate them just because they are so blatantly commercial, but most anime is like that. Cowboy Bebop has spaceships in it because Bandai wanted to sell models. Porco Rosso was funded by JAL airlines. The longest running anime in Japan (I have forgotten the name) has real life Panasonic products drawn into. It's nothing new. How do you feel about Disney/Miyizaki deal, is this a good or a bad thing? Do you think he could be influenced in any further films he makes with the knowledge that his work will reach a larger world audience? Well, it's good that Ghibli films are now becoming widely available in North America, but I worry about the future. Disney its self is going downhill rapidly, and you can no longer count on them for quality. Also, I'm pissed that the didn't release My Neighbor Totoro in this wave, and I think Disney will try to worm their way out of releasing My Neighbors the Yamadas. Do you think other animators could cater their work with one eye on a western audience? I think that some already do. Where do you see anime going in the future? For anime films, I see the possibility of a big break out. Right now American feature film companies are totally geared to make 3d films, and at some point the public may get bored of seeing only that style of animation. Considering that anime is the only source of 2d animation, and that big players like Disney & Dreamworks have closed their 2d facilities, something really good could happen.... or not. For anime series, I think the popularity of the TV series will remain steady. When I was young we had stuff like Voltron and Robotech on tv, and while there are more anime shows on now today, I don't think there will be any big gains for a while. The anime DVD market is saturated, and this is partially the fault of fans for wanting so many shows (where's Kaikan Phrase!!!!) and partially the fault of the companies who put out the DVD. If the show is not on American TV somewhere, then there's little to no advertising for new titles. The only advertising that there is is basically "preaching to the converted". The reason why people went out to buy Samurai Champloo Volume one when it came out is not because the distributor did a lot of advertising. It's because they downloaded and watched it on the net, or heard the hype from those people who watch the fansubs. This is not a good thing for the DVD industry... |
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red stranger
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I'm not sure that he's becoming "art house". The man did Nausicaa, which wasn't exactly a straight forward piece like Kiki's Delivery Service. And Howl's Moving Castle, despite having Miyazaki's anti-war message shoe-horned in, is a fairy tale love story. Disney will probably shoot themselves that they didn't do it themselves... |
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Lupin_333
 Posts: 136 Location: Houston, TX |
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What attracts you to anime
I'm just a general fan of underground cinema, which includes anime. How do you feel about animes rise in popularity in the west? It's a double-edged sword. On the dark side, we'll get more crap with 4Kids style dubs, but on the good side we'll get stuff like The Anime Channel Do you feel it will change or destroy animes integrity or do you think that it might open the way for interesting hybrids with American animators? Are American companies just exploiting the anime aesthetic? I don't think it will do anything to anime's integrity. In fact, when I'm older or have the money/manpower I'm going to do an anime-inspired cartoon, but the thing is that American cartoonists, when making an anime-styled work, only emulate the art style and not the way the Japanese present the stories. How do you feel about anime such as Pokemon? There'd be no anime without shows like that. Remember that most anime TV shows back in the day like Gundam and Mazinger were created to be marketing tie-ins. How do you feel about Disney/Miyizaki deal, is this a good or a bad thing? Do you think he could be influnced in any further films he makes with the knowledge that his work will reach a larger world audience? The Disney/Miyazaki deal is a good thing. Studio Ghibi's films get seen by a wider audience and the Disney animators are influenenced (see John Lasseteer). I don't think Miyazaki's going to be influenced in a negative way by this at all. Do you think other animators could cater their work with one eye on a western audience? Yes. Watch Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust or Ninja Scroll the Series. They were made mostly for American audiences. Where do you see anime going in the future? I think that the fad part will die out soon and anime will be left to the intellectuals, the perverts, the film conniesuers (I know I spelt that one wrong, sorry), and small children. - R3x |
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quincyarcher
 Posts: 164 Location: Age of Paranoia |
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What attracts you to anime?
What attracts people to movies? I see things I like and I watch them. Stories in anime tend to hold my attention longer. I get attached to the characters in anime, where I wouldn't get the chance to like characters in films over sequel after sequel. And part of it is the fandom. I'm mostly exposed to anime titles via other anime fans, so I tend to continue watching only anime. How do you feel about animes rise in popularity in the west? I think it's both good and bad. I fear the rise in popularity will make it harder to find. Since anime isn't just one film or one book, it's hard to get the sequential series from local retailers and a lot of the titles I might've been interested in if I was only exposed to a smaller amount of titles will be overlooked. But the popularity also gives me a chance to see anime I couldn't complete from my current position. I was worried about watching latter Kodomo no Omocha episodes in Japanese, as I doubt I could've followed Sana's dialogue, but now that it's set for English release, I can sit back and wait. Do you feel it will change or destroy animes integrity or do you think that it might open the way for interesting hybrids with American animators? Are American companies just exploiting the anime aesthetic? I feel that the hybrids have potential to be very good, but I also fear many people being first exposed to these hybrids as opposed to real anime. Their initial reactions could be greatly skewed by this. I also have a feeling that most American companies are in it for the buck, but can you blame them? Anime is a fast-growing industry, it would be silly for companies to ignore this. After all, most of the original colonies were founded for economic purposes. American is a consumer nation and our companies have long been trained to do just this. I just wish American would stop trying to mesh popular American shows with anime and invent a formula that would utilize creative American storytelling techniques with that which made anime popular in the first place. How do you feel about anime such as Pokemon? They're dirty little addictions of mine. The cuteness is too great to resist. That's what makes Pokemon so fun. I honestly think if it had grown as a fansub prior to its release in America, fans would be less objecting to the series. Watching the original Japanese Pokemon made me realize that the intense marketing to children in America caused an anime fan backlash, not wanting to be associated with a children's show, although anime fans have long enjoyed series that were marketed to young children in Japan. I have a feeling if more anime fans saw a subtitled version of the show they'd feel more interested in it. How do you feel about Disney/Miyizaki deal, is this a good or a bad thing? Do you think he could be influnced in any further films he makes with the knowledge that his work will reach a larger world audience? I think this deal is excellent. Miyazaki films are something the American public should be more readily familiar with and they can be easily enjoyed just like the old Disney films. They've got the heart and soul that recent Disney films have lost and I believe this is a mutually beneficial agreement for both Miyazaki and Disney. Miyazaki's deal with Disney assures that his films will find their way into almost every retail store in America and Disney profits from Miyazaki's inventive films. I don't think he'll be influenced any further by the deal. His films have always held a special place in the hearts of the Japanese and other countries. Just because he suddenly has an American market does not mean anything, in my opinion. Do you think other animators could cater their work with one eye on a western audience? I don't really expect they have much of a reason to yet. Just because America's more interested in this shouldn't give them any particular reason to deviate from marketing to their current audience. They don't know what American audiences want and trying to please too many people often ends up in pleasing no one. Where do you see anime going in the future? I see anime continuing to bomb for a few more years, then receeding to a smaller fandom again. It'll explode again a few years after that. I don't think it's got enough continuous market power to appeal consistently to such a large part of the American populace. |
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ac_dropout
Posts: 88 Location: Newark, NJ |
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I break Miyazaki's stuff into post-Princess Mononoke and pre-Princess Mononoke. Prior to Mononoke, his stuff is accessible to masses. The message is not overwhelming to the storyline. The protagonist had very simple and easy conflict the audience could relation to; like coming of age stories of little girls, or a man's search for redemption for sins of war. But his post Mononoke stuff he is tackling these grand conflicts in life. It is almost straining is story telling style to telling style to the limits. Some of his later 3 movies the messages are worked in as subplots that just don't seem very refined. It is sort of like Norman Rockwell's later artworks. Great popular artist. But when Norman tried to do high art, it just didn't really work. The same is true with Miyazaki at this point with these very grand messages that are not refined into the movie. Like Micheal Jackson and pop music, Miyazaki is become less relavant these days. Yes Miyazaki will have a great legacy in anime, but his latest projects don't seem as well done as his earlier work from a storytelling standpoint, which dissappoints me. |
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Steventheeunuch
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The same things that attract me to other shows of other mediums- the plot devices and how they work. Since the ammount of Anime is diverse and large, and I'm not even interested in over 2 percent of it, the question for me really should be "what doesn't attract you to anime?", but that isn't the original question. In short... I don't honestly know.
Popularity is good, but understanding of what makes a story work and what makes a show good cannot be substituted for "Artistic" gimmicks such as big eyes and speed lines.
Anime's integrity isn't as great as you think. A lot of borderline, cookie-cutter shows are made/have been made, and a lot of the popular TV franchises are simply taken on both sides of the coast as giant merchandise advertisements, despite artistic merit (or lack thereof). For every Fullmetal Alchemist (or Ghost in the Shell, or Bebop), there's around 5-10 Divergence Eve's. Hybrids have actually been going on for decades now, productions created via French/Japanese and American/Japanese co-operations make up a decent chunk of the nostalgia market (inspector gadget, for example).
That'd honestly depend which company you're talking about. DC did for Teen Titans, but that had mixed results, and nearly every animation studio in the US have had some undertaking of some kind of semi-"anime/asian" inspired series. As for Anime from it's original source, that also depends on the company. Tokyopop obviously try to sell some of their Anime series as Anime (Rave Master, Initial D), however they also perform illogical and odd edits/adaptations that take away from the original work. Companies such as FUNimation (sans Dragonball Z/GT franchise(depending on your point of view, naturally), and partially the whole "Case Closed/Detective Conan" release) and Geneon work on and promote their Anime based on the series original strengths and what not, and keeping their adaptations to a somewhat loose yet fairly faithful job.
Pokemon is a national phenomena in Japan, and has the potential to last many, many years (along side cartoons such as Sazae-san, and Doraemon). Subsequently, it is also popular in the US, but keep in mind that popular Anime usually keeps children in mind as the initial audience. It may not be your "thing" per se, but it does entertain millions of people worldwide AND collects substantial revenue, so it does it's job pretty darn well, and I can respect that.
Even before Disney started to take a larger role in the distribution and English adaptations of Ghibli's films, Ghibli/Miyazaki and co. stated that their works were popular in other countries, mainly Europe (Miyazaki actually prefers the French dub of Porco Rosso over the original). Still, regardless of who currently holds their home video rights, they still aim to produce content primarily for Japanese audiences, because hey, they've been doing that for years and years now, and it hasn't hindered them at all. Should Disney come to Miyazaki and try to hire him to produce a film or other content for Disney, I'm not entirely sure what he would do, but the chances of Disney asking him are very, very remote (to nil). Then again, he is very buddy-buddy with Jon Lasseter, who has directed dubs for several of his films (and who he nominated on first priority to direct the Howl's Moving Castle dub), so anything can happen really.
They already do, take IGPX or whatever it is, a Production IG original for US Cartoon Network, the portion of Kill Bill which was done by P.IG, Kawajiri's Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, which was aimed at an international audience (hence it's first language being English). Where it can go from now is something that can not really be accuratly measured or accounted for. The future is ever changing.
Depends which aspect you look at. Obviously larger Japanese series, such as ones animated from Shonen Jump titles, will continue to be popular both here and there, but as for other Anime, barring high-tier things like Ghibli... well, they're not exactly in the best position over in Japan, so who knows. Finally, I have a question for other people in regard to my previous answer- What would be the general concensus from people if Miyazaki decided to take an offer from Disney, or maybe Pixar (assuming they go independant) to either assist or direct an animated film for an international audience (not just for Japan, and then the rest of the world). Do you think his directing is strong enough to translate into any culture or language, or is he only good as an Anime director? |
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JonnyLambarta
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big thanks to everyone who's replied, you've all brought up things i haven't thought about yet, it's all a great help, cheers!
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The Shadow
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I've been an animation fan most of my life, but as I grew to adulthood, I found that American animation, slanted almost exclusively toward a juvenile audience, was no longer appealing to my maturing tastes. I found a lot of anime shows that dealt with serious, mature, subject matter and realistic characterizations and emotions that were often considered too intense for children's entertainment in the States.
Years ago, I use to dream about some of the things that have actually happened since then: watching major anime films in American movie theaters, seeing dubbed programs on television translated with intergrity and competence, acquiring dubbed or subtitled episodes of my favorite shows for my home video collection. We've reached the point where anime (and manga) have ceased to be a genre unto themselves. There are niche markets under the umbrella, and they are becoming increasingly more mainstream (I think anime officially went mainstream the day you could buy a Dragonball Z Kids' Meal at Burger King.)
I'm not sure what you mean by "integrity". The Japanese animation industry is like any other market-driven industry: there will always be "artists" and there will always be "hucksters", and the consumer will have the last say on which is which. The American entertainment industry will jump on any new trend just because it is "hot", and there will always be some people that are merely jumping on whatever bandwagon happens to pass by. But there will also be people that will take the time to find out why a trend is attracting attention, and respect it. They should have the fans' support.
I dont generally watch programs aimed at the "children 2-11 demographic, but I must admit, they can serve as a "gateway drug" for the serious fan of the future, so more power to 'em.
I have to break with the rest of the pack on this one. I do not think the Disney/Miyazaki deal is a good thing. It has always been my belief, and I have seen little evidence to convince me otherwise, that Disney bought the American distribution rights to Studio Ghibli's films, not to release them to an American audience, but to keep any other studio from doing the same. The few that have made it into theaters have gotten only very limited art-house releases with virtually no marketing or promotion; the ones released on home video come out in clumps of three with no fanfare or advertising. These are not the actions of a studio trying to "sell" a commodity (and let's face it, if there's one thing Disney knows, it's marketing), but rather the sputtering efforts of a corporation trying to meet the minimal standards of contractual obligation. As far as influencing Miyazaki, any research into his work will reveal that he makes his movies for one person: himself. The United States is actually one of the last parts of the world to discover his work; he has a huge following in Europe and Asia, and they haven't influenced him to change his ways, so I don't think a growing fan base in America will affect him any differently.
Many of them already have. Osamu Tezuka created many of his most famous works with an intention of selling them globally, rather than just in Japan. Yoshitaka Amano has had gallery showing in several American cities and has made no secret that he enjoys the attention his work gets in American. Kenichi Sonoda (manga artist of Gunsmith Cats and Riding Bean) loves the U.S. and visits regularly to get background material for his manga set in the U.S. (the two mentioned above are both set in Chicago), so he can depict his locations accurately.
The growth phase it has enjoyed since the mid-80's has not peaked yet, and probably won't for some time. The anime influence on American animation, already prevalent, will become more prominent, as a new generation of animators who grew up in the manga/anime subculture become professionals and begin to influence the industry. It probably won't be much longer before Japanese animation studios begin marketing their products directly in America, rather than selling broadcast/home video rights to American translating agencies (Bandai and Geneon are already doing this; others will follow). We may soon see co-productions between American and Japanese companies, with first-run programs running more or simultaneously in both countries. |
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Tenchi
Posts: 4663 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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Nah, if Disney didn't want anyone seeing the Ghibli films, the best way to bury them would be to let the traditional anime distributors get the rights and distribute them.
There's enough of a profit to be made from the films to be interesting to Disney, especially on DVD where the overhead is much lower than a wide theatrical release, but Disney is not a charity case and releases the films theatrically proportional to what they think demand is, as the films are still very niche, not as niche as most anime (excluding the kiddy merchandising franchise anime), but still very niche compared to the market for animated films from Disney, Pixar, Dreamworks, and Nickelodeon. |
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red stranger
Posts: 184 |
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But again, there's Nausicaa, which predates Mononoke by about 10 years. Like Mononoke it is an epic adventure that deals with large themes like war and the environment. Unlike Mononoke, which was more or less contained within the one movie, Nausicaa comes from a manga that began before the film, and kept going until many years afterward. Also, while you are entitled to your opinions, calling his post Mononoke stuff unaccesseble to the masses is a bit silly. Yes, perhaps many Japanese went to see Spirited away because it was by Miyazaki-san, and yes, Disney gave it an international release because it was Miyazaki-san. But at the end of the day, if it wasn't accessible or had bad story telling, why is it one of the most popular films (if not the most popular) to come out of Japan? Same thing for Howl's, though I doubt that it will be as popular as Spirited Away, because it DOES have storytelling problems, though not the ones you seem to think it has. But it will still do well because it's probably the most accessable Miyazaki film ever - take out the war subplot and it's a Disney film...
???? The main message in Spirited Away was quite clear - "Grow Up!" Chihiro starts off as a whiney, clingy little girl who's biggest problem is that she's moving house. Though her adventures in the spirit world she becomes more responsible, and more adult. There are other messages within the subplots, but they're all tied to the main plot. In Howl's the big problem is they cut massive amounts of stuff from the original book. Yes, obviously they HAD to do it, but they cut a little too much, or maybe not enough. For example, in the book, the war was essential because the Witch of the Waste was behind it. All the big action scenes were Howl vs the Witch. In the film, the witch has no part in the war, and so it feels tacked on. But even so, it still came out as a simple fantasy film, complete with spoiler[everybody living happily ever after at the end]. I've seen reviews where people are actually calling this Miyazaki's first "formulaic" movie. Quite the opposite of an unaccessable arthouse film. To be fair though, Miyazaki took this film over for another director - who knows what was Miyazaki's decsion and what was the other guy's... As for Mononoko, yes it's a big art piece, but I don't think the messages get lost anywhere. All the subplots come together, and in the end everthing is clear. Personally I think it's much more on track than Porco Rosso, which wavers between a serious film about a man dealing with his past, and a straight forward comedy/action adventure. |
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