Forum - View topicAnswerman - Is Makio from Journal with Witch Neurodivergent, or Are We Just Projecting?
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justsomeaccount
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The debate with neurodivergency in anime (or any series with characters where traits can be overplayed, really) is always going to be hard because if it's already hard to define in real life and what people understand from it, you add a medium with characters that have personalities with more overplayed traits, and then it's hard to say what's intentional or what not. Laios from Delicious in Dungeon was considered extremely that, but the author said she didn't write him keeping that in mind. On the same way Makio gets some recognition by the series' explicit terminology, the main character from "Walking with dead" (a series about a girl that people seem to die alongside her all the time and not because she caused it or meant ti, but she doesn't really care) actually mentions how if she went to a hospital they may diagnose her with some kind of clinical psycopathy, which suggests an awareness and the series gets close to that definition but sometimes it can overplay those traits. And explicit recognition may not always be the most ideal, such as the series Asperger Girlfriend which is probably well-intended but kinda... em... questionable.
I think though, for the cases you don't have an obvious answer, the term "coded" is still good because, yeah maybe an author didn't make Osaka from Azumanga Daioh or Laios intentionally representing that despite seeming obvious; but they may as well be because they're representing traits they've observed and know they're part of the human experience, so their observation of the reality gets imprinted in their writing, including people like that whether they know or not. And the term coded has always meant to include the things that are similar, not just things that are canon but left to subtext. And we should also know that even current terminology is limiting for behaviors that in reality are way more nebulous and present in most people even if in small quantities that are disregarded (after all even considered neurotypical people can relate to a neurodivergent's struggle even if they may not reach that point). It's just a world where labeling it is going to be nebulous, and we should not forget it, but as a way to know how to engage with it better and know there are more states than "true or false", but "a little, nebulous", etc. and those nebulous states have a different value than "true and canon explicit" but that different value is as worth discussing and be identified as any other. And the classic "labels should be descriptive, not prescriptive" and such. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2561 Location: Online Terminal |
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I think so much of this is about context. If we were talking about Journal With Witch in a written medium, you might be able to get away with a more literal translation, but in an audio/visual medium where you only have the length of 7-8 Japanese syllables to find a suitable phrase, "neurodivergence" works. Also, while the choice may be imprecise, to most viewers it's still going to be very accurate. For most, the difference between the description of 発達障害 and the definition of "neurodivergent" is "4 years of med school."
The other bit about context is that language changes and evolves. If this was 2036, we might describe Makio differently than how we do in 2026. Merriam-Webster tracks the origin of "neurodivergent" to 2002, so Makio still may have been "neurodivergent" in 2016, but in 2006 she might've also been described as having Asperger's or just having some sort of learning disorder; in 1996, she may have just been called what's now considered a slur. The point is that these things change and evolve so trying to get one absolute conclusion is folly, especially when it isn't the point of the story being told. |
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justsomeaccount
Posts: 544 |
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Ah, another example that comes to mind where I firmly believe in the "probably not explicitely intended but definitely observed by experience": Maria from Umineko, a 10 year old with an unstable and abusive mother, and the child acts in many ways associated with a heavy case of autism. I don't know if the author R07 is specifically aware (bc I feel if he was he would have said it somewhere as he tends to do for 1000 thousand things in the kinetic novel), but he definitely nails it with the observations and portrayals, and there's a reason that perfectly explains it: he worked on child protection services (which also appear in the story), so I can believe he's bringing experience from when he worked there and the result felt so accurate. It's not confirmed of course, so we're still in the nebulous area, but it's one you can make a very good argument to be like "veeeery very likely", regardless of whether the author knows or not.
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Rosiero
Posts: 147 |
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I'm completely OOTL on this apparent discourse, so I'm having trouble parsing whether the article author is referring to neurodiversity as "Gen-Z slang" or if they're paraphrasing what people bothered by the translation choice are saying. Either way, it certainly isn't that; it's a contested term among professionals, sure, but it's been around for quite some time.
In the context of the scene, it works fine; there's no official medical diagnosis being given by a professional, it's just an observation. That leads into the much larger thing of people interpreting fictional characters, death of the author, etc. Not everybody is ever going to agree about a character's personality or the way their mind works, and that's normal. The author might not even consciously realize that what they're writing could be described in a certain way. But as human beings, we're inclined to put things in boxes because it makes it easier to parse things for ourselves as well as communicate with others. So if descibing a character is "neurodivergent" is helpful in that way, there's nothing wrong with that, and if people are getting up in arms about something like that, it feels very "old man yells at cloud". If the people opposed to the use of "neurodivergent" in the translation actually spoke Japanese, they would probably be aware of everything the article lays out with regards to the term used in Japanese, but it seems very common that anime translation debates are fueled by some closed-minded folks on social media getting really upset that a common term they don't understand is "invading" "their" media. See also uproar about characters being transgender. I'm a trans woman, and I don't always agree with online takes about a character being trans, but a lot of the really infamous kerfuffles about that sort of thing can't possibly be any more blatant in the literal Japanese text, so those getting upset about it can only be ignorant about the work and feeling threatened by the appearance of something they don't understand. tl;dr this kind of seems like a nothingburger but also very par for the course |
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TJ_Kat
Posts: 894 Location: Saskatoon, Canada |
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I'm not sure why anyone would consider those two things to be mutually exclusive? Quite the opposite, it would not surprise me in the slightest if the vast majority of 'typical eccentric writers' are on one (or several) neurodivergent spectrum or another. Regarding authors not intending their obviously neurodivergent characters to be as such; I would bet money those authors are undiagnosed neurodivergent. |
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whiskeyii
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Without touching on audience parasocial relationships or armchair diagnoses, there's the not-unsubstantial stigma against mental disorders in Japan to consider, which neurodivergence is considered to be. (But thanks for the added context about the actual language being used, I found that very helpful and informative!) |
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2468 |
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Reacting to the article first, I really appreciate how the show, shows what she is like. I have been watching the show with a bunch of autistic friends and it wasn't until like episode 4 or 5 that we all clued into her possibly being on the spectrum. It is nice to see characters who are portrayed/coded as autistic who yes it comes up and factors into their lives but also can have the focus be on other parts of their life. sometimes I can prefer characters who are autistic coded or not officially but still get the details right.
That said it can be amazing to have characters like her who are officially autistic and have and deal with autistic problems but are also allowed to be main characters and make major decisions in the story. It's so nice to see characters like her be allowed to not only make correct decisions and mistakes, but also share their viewpoint and help people by doing so. I will say that ten years ago in anime we got very few autistic coded characters let alone 20 years ago. now we have multiple a year actually. and even a little genre of slice of life/ comedy/ etc shows that have either officially or very blatantly obvious autistic leads such as ahren-san. Japan is really starting to be more open and understanding of autistic people. I will say luffy might have helped with that a bit. I am so happy to hear someone else bring up maria from umineko. In my opinion certain thing only make sense / are possible if you think she is autistic and therefore might not be identifying people the same way as everyone else. I was actually able to interview ryukishi07 thanks to a kickstarter on japanese game dev and one of the question was about what he was thinking about when he designed maria and I think that his time with child services did effect her writing as well as sotakos. but also maria especially after episode 1 where she is less archetypical and more allowed to have her own uniqueness. She is shown to have a more complex character and much less of r7 checking to see if you are understanding what is going on. Once Beatrice is allowed to be up and about that role goes to her so maria can just be maria : Regarding Maria, who appears in Umineko, I think about her as sort of like a Joker character. When you think about a child you don’t think that they’re capable of killing somebody, you don’t expect that they would have tricks up their sleeve. But Maria is portrayed as somebody who is not a typical child – someone who is a bit strange, a bit mysterious – so she can do these things. So this was the background to creating the character Maria, as a different type of child, with some characteristics that make her different from everybody else.[/list] |
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Hellsoldier
 Posts: 1162 Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol |
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Flashbacks to the Hoshikawa Lily debacle, which is exactly what this whole debate reminds me of. Because, in the minds of some people, Queer people and neurodivergent people don't exist in Japan. In fact, politics and foreigners don't exist in Japan (sarcasm). And I'm calling it now as someone in the spectrum: Yumiella is one of us. |
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Yuvelir
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This bit gave me pause. Because this truly IS a generational contrast. Watching Makio be explored, seen, and express herself on her own terms through her own words without any specific labels or lens to frame her history and behaviour was fascinating and uplifting. I came to this column groaning, because label discourse is something that I despise. I recognize the utility of labels to define and identify, to stop being lost, recognizing patterns, being able to understand and develop faster from a known framework. But also I feel people obsess much over them, to the point that personality and preferences are subserved to the labels: characters (or even worse - actual people) are stripped of their individuality to conform into a series of easy to digest labels, and I find that dreadful. ... or at least that's how it makes me feel and now I have to ponder if that's really happening or if it's just the generational gap felt by someone in their latter 30's. The only labels we really had for this kind of stuff were some clinical stuff, autism was just for the most extreme degree, and "ace" was the 1 on a given set of cards. Am I so out of touch or is the children who are wrong? |
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Doubleclouder
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I find that's a perfectly reasonable critique to have. It's the same way we've been seeing series dealing with weight or fat being translated using the very awkward "plus-size" term that most people don't actually use aside from a specific subset of specifically-minded people who want to be very politically correct. Certain terms are emotionally or politically charged so choosing to translate certain Japanese terms or words into them is a deliberate choice and why some people object. A lot of anime translation these days are very sanitized to the point even when an offensive word is used in the Japanese script it tends to not get translated at all to avoid offending anyone. Unfortunately a lot of dialog and terms used sounds like it's done by people writing for a scripted post on social media and not actual real dialog between humans these days.
Except in 99% of those cases it's a Laios situation where the author has come out and said a character is not transgender yet certain people in the fandom refuse to accept it and just continue to do their own thing because their own headcanon and interpretation is more important to them. It's true fans will always think they know more than official translators or the creators, but that's a two-way street. Much like Laios or Yamato or Hibari, I'm sure fans will always insist they know a character better than the original creator does. Which is why discussions like these are probably pointless. What the creator classifies Makio or if a certain word matches hattatsu shōgai ultimately doesn't matter because people will continue to do what they want. Personally I wouldn't use "neurodivergent" for hattatsu shōgai much like I wouldn't use "plus size" just because it's a very specific word used by very specific people online and isn't how most people talk in everyday conversation or at least no one I talk to everyday at work or out and about. |
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Dancing Green
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As a 39 year old man who has been diagnosed with aspergers and mild autism I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and say I have literally never heard a single person say "neurodivergent" in my life not even any doctor or therapist I've seen in my life. I've heard a lot of other words and terms all throughout my life but I have only seen "neurodivergent" used online in these kinds of articles or social media posts and never used by a real living and breathing human being. I don't like the term myself. Sounds too.. fancy. Too fake. Too soft. Reminds me of that old George Carlin bit about 'soft language' Learning disability, mental disability, autism, ADD, ADHD, aspergers, any of those sounds more natural and pleasing to me. I generally dislike online gen z speak though so maybe it's just one of those cases of anime translations being annoying again like when they put in 'rizz' or 'the goat' and other terms I don't think belong in anime although I'm willing to believe more people say those words in real life than 'neurodivergent' . That's definitely one of those words you only ever see used by very online people.
As for if a character is or isn't autistic I don't really care I relate to characters and like them beyond labels or diagnoses. I relate more to the annoying otaku characters who get really anal and insistant about specific and superificial things than anyone else. Is Umaru-chan autistic? I dunno, but I like the way she's normal and puts on a front out in the real world and the second she she gets home she strips down to PJs and just lays around playing games and eating junk food and being lazy and no desire to go back outside so I like her and go "she's literally me ". I'd probably relate more to those characters than any one specifically made to be 'neurodivergent' intentionally but that's just my guess. |
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Joe Mello
Posts: 2561 Location: Online Terminal |
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As someone who is older than you but is regularly around younger people online, I've been trying to circle my thoughts about the society we live in around representation. Even though I present as the "default" protagonist (white, cis, male, Christian, abled) I empathize with those who want to see themselves in the media they take in. I agree that there isn't enough representation for those who aren't like me and some of the representation that does exist has been pretty bad. I also appreciate the need for good explicit representation because of what that means for the wider conversation. You shouldn't have to feel like your existence is wrong; you should be able to have people you can directly relate to and empathize with because that makes life more livable; and I should be able to see all of these different people and realize that it takes all kinds of people to make the world as it is, and it's a better place because of it. The problem arises is while it is now easier than ever to find people that share the same struggles as you, you are no less prone than falling into a closed-minded group than anyone else. Young people who are still trying to find their way through the world and do so through fandom, may end up finding like-labeled individuals seeking representation in media and it eventually becomes the only thing they seek in media, whether that's looking for coding or "baiting" to affix labels that don't actually apply, or judge media quality on whether the particular label can be affixed. One (non-anime) example I've seen recently was involving Gravity Falls' creator Alex Hirsch taking Q&A at a con. An attendee who was transgender said that they were able to identify with one of the show's characters and that helped the attendee as they were transitioning, so the question was if the character was actually transgender. Hirsch effectively said "no," explaining that the show was mostly based around his experiences growing up and his specific experiences informed that character, but if that attendee found something in that character that resonated, then whatever they felt was correct. I think this was a very good response in that it shouldn't matter what a show (or film or book) actually says about a character, what matters is how the character resonates with you; if you find something in that character to connect to, then the important part is done. Also, while I'm sure plenty of young people are getting ideas about physical and behavioral medicine from non-scientific sources, it's not like I nor my ilk were doing any better when we logged onto webMD or ask Dr. Google. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
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No one wants forced/bad/ stereotypical/ lazy representation that is just there to claim to be there. What journal with witch does is not forced and stereotypical. It comes out slowly and organically. It is brought up as a passing observation that is well supported based on the characters actions.
There are valid reasons for wanting more nuanced and accurate representation in media, I think everyone would prefer that. And its fine to prefer charcters that are coded(present traits or mannerisms of something) instead trying to force every character that is supposed to represent/have those traits to be held up as an example. Its perfectly fine for it to be a head cannon. Sometimes the stories we tell ourselves are just as important as the ones we are told. That said especially in this case I absolutely see no problem with the scene and translation. It accurately reflects the generational gap about how these type of things are talked about by different generations. Yes younger generations use more medical terminology. To them it can be seen as more accurate and have fewer negative connotations. So yes it carries the same context and meaning i would argue . The r word would have been used in previous generations but now it is seen as marking the person as less human. Auspergers went away because it was seen as creating a false distinction and that it could be seen as dividing people up into can participate and not participate in society. Neurodivergent has only been around for the past roughly 10 to 20 years. It really came about as understanding of autism, adhd, dyslexia and other conditions came to be understood as having underlying similarities. Other related terms are neruoatypical and the shortened atypical. I am not trying to be here saying oh you need to use the correct term . There are many disagreement about the proper terms to use. Heck I myself hate the term "differently abled" as a replacement for special needs because to me it sounds fake and like someone is setting up to a punchline for a bad joke. The point of words is to provide new and possibly more accurate meaning. To be completely fair she might not be autistic but but just introverted and having adhd. The two are far closer then most realize. The point of the term neurodivergent is that it includes multiple conditions that someone might have multiple or only one of, or might be on the three year wait list to be tested for an offical diagnosis for but everyone knows and agrees something is different Also ps I personally see umaru and luffy as autistic. For opposite reasons, umaru I would honestly say could be a very adapt high masking autistic. We're as luffy i could almost describe as incapable of understanding the concept. |
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Nekbone
Posts: 214 |
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Ultimately what the creator says doesn't matter because we have plenty of instances of the creator shooting down people's head-canons and "coding" but people still choose to ignore the actual creator and continue along doing what they usually do. Unfortunately you can't really stop people from trying to co-op or claim characters, and even more unfortunate there's also no way to stop them from attacking people who don't subscribe to their own head-canon and go after people who treat the character differently. Or you get the really parasocial armchair therapists who try to diagnose the creator like we already see in this thread and many others which just comes off incredibly creepy to me.
For translation I don't like it when localizers insert modern slang or terminally onine terms in translations. If it's only in the English dub then it's fine and can be dismissed as usual dub bowdlerization but seeing it in a sub gives it some degree of authority which is unfortunate when sub translations are off and use unfitting translations like this. And all it does is embolden the people from before into thinking their head-canon is canon because the (inaccurate) localization said something. Also it sets precedence which is never good to let take hold. If you let "neurodivergent" slide in this case then the next time something pops up in an anime they can point to this and say it was translated this way here so it's accurate. Soon it just becomes common acceptance that the word "neurodivergent" is used in anime and it's used in places of things like chuuni or other terms people can argue would fall under such a broad umbrella. We already saw this happen when anime stopped translating the word okama as an English appropriate word and now if it's even translated at all it's written as "queer" which doesn't convey the same thing as the original word means so they think characters calling someone an okama is an endearing term rather than an insult. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
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Okay before I start I have done a lot of fan translation and manga scantilation work Looks at post then looks at the articles. so you are complaining about people doing the inverse of what you are doing. when you are effectively doing the same exact thing....... Okay so we have the exact opposite situation where the author is using the Japanese legal umbrella term for people for are autistic, adhd, learning disabilities, and other things. where the implication has never been that she has a learning disablity and shown to have ADHD/ Autistic traits. SOOO if you don't want to put words in the authors mouth but actually want people to understand in english then you do it. Ground rule you should actual translate the term without a translator note and leaving the japanese term in the english translation. Because we left that behind for a reason. Also if you were gonna try to force a translation note you have 5 words. two of them have to be the Japanese term Because you have to force the note into one line of subtitle text. There is no reason to assume that a term that is virtually identical to neurodivigerent as a translation would allow for someone to start making gamergate jokes or whatever you are freaking out about. I definitely think subs should be more literal and dubs should be more in the spirit of the original line like you do. but if you don't want a word translated because you hate the concept of it. that;s kinda racist to assume that there aren't words or concepts in their language just because you hate them and want to keep them pure from wokism Obviously the translators job is to translate the text to it is understandable to an english audience and not rewrite it to throw their talking points on a social issue into it. but they are literally talking about how she might be special needs and are using an english special needs term that reflects the condition the character is suspected as having. Also I am going to say this flat out. in my dress up darling marin is a GARYU HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT. If you don't like HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS using terms that HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS use because you find them CRINGE. Maybe you aren't the target demographic. High school students don't magically become totally different because they speak a different language and live in another country. If you have watch the original japanese version and can't imagine her saying something similar to TOTS ADORBS or Fetch in japanese I would seriously question you without three JPL N1 backing you up |
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