Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - Movie Night Madness
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Triltaison
 Posts: 943 |
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Today I learned that some people consider the Utena movie a sequel instead of an alternate version of the story. How bizarre. Kinda curious how they explain Nanami's version and all the figurative literalism.
Anyway, I've always enjoyed works that do alternate takes on existing stories. Sometimes I end up liking those versions better. El-Hazard's many takes, the Rayearth OVA, and several of the movies mentioned here are memorable to me for that reason. The Ah My Goddess movie was another one that kinda played with part of the original (and unadapted for anime at the time) manga story. The straight adaptations like the Gundam compilation movies are less enjoyable to me because of their fidelity to the source material (even if they add new scenes or whatever like Zeta's New Translation). |
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PurpleWarrior13
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My first time watching Evangelion was the first Rebuild when Toonami showed it around 2013. It was pretty straight-forward and I enjoyed it. But then I saw the second film when they showed it a few months later and found it hard to follow. Years later, after I found a copy of the Platinum Holiday Collection DVD set for almost free, I sat down and watched the original series followed by Death/Rebirth, End of Eva, and then all 4 Rebuilds in a row (this was right when the 4th first came out). Now I can’t watch the series any other way. To me, they’re two parts to the same whole. The first 3 films kind of hint that the story isn’t as self contained as it may seem, but the 4th pretty much tells us point blank (without giving too much away) that what we’re watching is actually a follow up. The way I personally see it: if NGE is the Old Testament, then the Rebuilds are the New. But everyone has their own interpretation, and that’s the beauty of art and shows what kind of power the series has.
I don’t really see the Utena movie the same way though. To me it’s more of an alternate retelling, and can be taken more easily on its own terms. But I think it’s probably easier to follow if you’ve seen the anime first. Also I know it’s not a movie, but Tenchi Universe > Tenchi Muyo OVA |
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pachy_boy
Posts: 1380 |
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The storyline of the Escaflowne movie being an allegory for depression was exactly what I thought it was--the state of Gaia was the state of Hitomi's own heart amplified by the movie's dark/gritty tone, and her journey/choices were representative of her finding/accepting a path of healing, spoiler[with Dilandau's survival representing that there will always be a seed of darkness because darkness itself can never be completely vanquished, and Hitomi's exit indicated that she was going to be spiritually okay whatever path she took without outright stating it]. I get that Hitomi's/Van's relationship technically moved fast, but by looking at it through the lenses I did, I was able to suspend disbelief and it still worked for me.
The only other similar reimagining I can think of is the Magic Knight Rayearth OVA, where it changes both the setting and tone of the original story that I wasn't prepared for--and yet I was captivated the whole way through because of it and it strangely worked for itself. The Utena movie is a beautiful masterpiece, DYRL is a product of its time but still beautiful to watch, and I've long since decided to ignore the Rebuild films--for me, Evangelion has always ended at the aptly-titled End of Evangelion. |
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ZelosZoidberg
 Posts: 1065 |
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There's also the Fist of the North Star films. At least they aren't as bad as the new series.
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PumpkinMouse
 Subscriber Posts: 111 |
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Oh hey, I'm one of the folks whose only seen the Rebuild movies! (Well, sorta'--I watched maybe 5 episodes of the original series a decade ago before giving up.) I'll admit that I was furiously texting my sister at the end of each movie since she's seen all the original stuff and I knew I could rely on her to tell me if my ramblings were way off base. My chief memory of the third movie is feeling like Shinji held the Idiot Ball pretty much the whole time and didn't grow at all as a character, which felt at odds with the considerable character growth he'd shown in the previous two movies. I assume that dissatisfaction came from all the references I missed that were being pointed to throughout the movie, but as a sequel to the previous two movies, it was definitely the least enjoyable to watch. I was also very, very confused when the characters would mention "Adam", "Lilith", "Angels", "Impacts", and "Seeds of Life". (So...every proper noun in the plot, really. I assume this was all the series knowledge I was lacking.) My sister basically lore-dumped it all for me afterwards, which helped, but the third movie was definitely the least decipherable of the quartet. I rolled with the plot as best I could and refocused my attention on the characters--which is probably why Shinji's lack of growth is my strongest impression of the movie. 
Despite my lack of understanding, I enjoyed the quartet quite a lot! It felt quite hopeful at the end for everyone, with character growth and completed character arcs for all and not just Shinji, which (as far as I know) is not really how things go in the series. Also the Worst Dad in Anime History apologized to his son for being a bad dad, which isn't nothing, and is also, as far as I know, not something that happens in the series. (I recognize that the Rebuild movies and the original series are wildly different in, well, everything, but most notably in tone, which I think is why I didn't bounce off the Rebuild movies. The tone of the series was very much not for me, and while I recognize its importance in anime culture and history, I also recognize that I am never going to watch it, so I'm glad there's a version of Evangelion I like.) |
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Covnam
 Posts: 4393 |
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Hmm, that reminds me, if there's no domestic announcement of a DYRL BD after that showing, it's probably time to import it...
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Regalli
Posts: 140 |
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So the way I've always heard it proposed is that, essentially, the version of Ohtori that exists in the movie really only exists for Utena and Anthy - spoiler[that while Anthy made a clean break in the finale, Utena did not fully let go of the ideal of the prince (her last true line, after all, is apologizing to Anthy that she couldn't be her prince and save her,) and is still sort of trapped in the cycle rather than entering the world as a whole and with it adulthood. Note that Toki Ni Ai Wa, the song in the dance sequence, refers to the singer and someone else "meeting again" and promises made - it's Anthy holding off on fully leaving Ohtori to ensure Utena escapes as well. The other characters, then, are more... caricatures, in a sense, of themselves, not necessarily the real people but constructs built from Utena and Anthy's memories or Akio using them or something in between. Nanami in particular is interesting because she's arguably a tritagonist of the show, as a foil to both Utena and Anthy who comes the closest of any of the other duelists to getting out of Ohtori, but in the movie is just a cameo on a video tape who doesn't even appear as herself. In this reading, Nanami's lack of presence is potentially because she herself has graduated from Ohtori to the real world, and no longer exists in Akio's world to be a piece in his games. Touga, being depicted as dead in the film, is another playing piece shoved into the one noble role he ever aspired to - Utena's prince, in terms of him wanting to protect her from Akio towards the end of the show - but since the ultimate point of the series and film is that the prince is an unreachable and ultimately unnecessary ideal that must be discarded to enter adulthood, he can't even reach for escape the way the rest of the Student Council and Wakaba (as their car) can.] Now, do I ascribe to this particular reading? Eh, depends on the day. I do think certain aspects (namely the dance and things like the Student Council's appearance in the finale or the Shadow Girls turning into dolls) make more sense read as a continuation or emotional closure for the show, but there's a definite argument to be made that viewing it as a sequel weakens the sequence where spoiler[Anthy offers to make Utena the new prince of Ohtori and Utena rejects that in favor of the real world] - that if it's show!Anthy, she's backsliding or lying, whereas movie!Anthy is learning to exist outside the shadow of Akio's abuse and hasn't truly realized the whole moral. I think the phrase "emotional follow-up" is probably the best way to describe it, on the whole. Still, I see where the "Adolescence is a sequel" argument comes from. I'd definitely recommend watching the movie AFTER the show given the chance to do both, both because of those aspects that feel like emotional follow-up and because it's so much easier to follow the symbolism-turned-literal if you've already gone through the Black Rose Arc and the Nanami episodes and have some understanding of the show's themes. |
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CountZeroOR
Subscriber Posts: 96 Location: Oregon |
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Fun fact, Dragon's Heaven got a one time only screening in Portland (Oregon) at one of the Hollywood Theater's OVA film festivals.
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tintor2
 Posts: 2708 |
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I first watched the movies of Gundam 0079, Turn A and Seed but I wanted to watched later the tv version cos it felt I was missing content. There is also the Zeta trilogy but it was one of the weirdest retellings ever with how much fast the animation changes and the narrative changes for the ending are ridiculous.
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Triltaison
Posts: 943 |
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@Regalli: Hmm. Thanks for explaining. I'm definitely still 100% team alternate version, though. Seems really convoluted and cheapens a lot of story beats.
It seems we differ a bit on the TV interpretation, too. spoiler[I've always thought that Utena simply attained her goal and became a Prince of her own accord. She didn't need the power granted from someone else, because the power was always there in her but she could only become one if she chose to expend everything. It's a full, knowing self sacrifice that erases her very existence and that makes her a true Prince. Anthy is finally ripped out of the cycle to do as she pleases instead of as she's told, but Anthy chooses to search for her Prince of her own accord this time. It doesn't matter if either find each other again because they both attained their true desires of autonomy.] |
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Greed1914
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Agree with you about Eva. Once I saw the fourth Rebuild, it felt like all of that clicked into place and it was all part of a (very spaced out) whole. I had a friend ask about watching Eva together, and I told him that he might not realize what he was in for since I now think it means watching all of that. I'm sure there people have different thoughts on that, but I don't think I would have come out of the last Rebuild feeling the way I did without all that other material leading to it. |
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Regalli
Posts: 140 |
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I admit mine's definitely informed in part by the movie's existence and ITS theme spoiler[rejecting the idea of the prince entirely and with it the entire broken system that is Ohtori, itself a facsimile for the structures of power and abuse in the real world... but I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for it in the TV series, too. Anthy stabs Utena AFTER Utena insists she'll be Anthy's prince and rescuer, which is clearly tied up in Anthy's complex feelings towards Akio as her abuser but also her brother who she once dearly loved and her being more comfortable with the horrible situation she knows than the possibility of going out into the world... but this also repeats one of the character flaws we've seen in Utena for most of the series, which is that she ALSO insists she knows what's best for Anthy rather than truly let Anthy decide for herself. (This comes up as early as the ball episode, which on rewatch must have been EXCRUCIATING for Anthy, but it's pretty prominent in the 11/12 two-parter, and it never REALLY goes away.) It's Utena childishly falling back on the "I'll be the one to save Anthy" - because remember, what was the most honest conversation they ever had was the one on the rooftop the night before, when Utena APOLOGIZES to Anthy for acting as a prince without ever noticing the pain she was in. "The truth is, my protecting you was just for my ego!" Also in episode 38 is the next episode preview shadow play - "You can't become a princess if the prince is a fake!" "But when that happens, the power of miracles will make me into a true prince!" "That's how anime works, doesn't it?" With the first two lines delivered in the usual histrionic voices of the Shadow Girls, and the final line being delievered in a much lower, less put-on voice. The show itself is questioning the idea of Utena becoming a true prince, because even a true prince is still beholden to the broken systems of power and abuse. But the real kicker for me is Dios's actions in 39 - he first appears on the carousel, on a noble-looking but utterly fake horse. He tells Utena to lie still, and that he'll treat her wounds later, tells her that as she is just a girl, she couldn't have the power to change the world, and then turns into Akio for a line - that power is for him alone, as an adult (and an adult MAN, given the show deals heavily with gendered power dynamics and fairy tale stereotypes,) to use. Then Dios kisses her ring - "The only comfort I can offer." The ultimate ideal of princehood in this show can do nothing to alleviate Anthy's suffering or Utena's, because he is ultimately a powerless symbol. IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS, we get Utena punching the ground and forcing herself up with the force of it. She's refuting Dios's assertion that she can't do anything for Anthy, just like she immediately after refutes Akio's. (Akio in particular points out that the prince's sword has been broken - the sword he was using to attack the gate - which Utena, very notably, does not use. She picks away at the thorns by hand instead. It's ultimately either her sweat or her tear, or both, that opens the gate - not symbols of a prince, as it either represents hard labor which is antithetical to princes, or ties into the whole "real men don't cry, crying is for girls" idea to further the gendered aspects of the show. And when we finally meet the Anthy who had been trapped in the coffin, the voice of Utena that we first hear isn't her 14-year-old princely self - it's the child version of her, who saw a girl suffering and vowed to save her, BEFORE she took on the trappings of the prince. It was Dios who told her that only a prince could save Anthy, but Dios is wrong.) Akio talks about how he was like her once, and Dios appears with him until Utena tells him to shut up, at which point Dios walks away and Akio drinks his very pink beverage. Dios is seen for the last time after the swords have stopped and Utena's opening the coffin, getting on the carousel again, just before Akio starts yelling at her to stop because of what will happen. Akio's scared of the swords, but so it seems is Dios. ] As to the ending, spoiler[I'm pretty neutral on Utena's fate and whether or not she and Anthy ever meet again - the important thing is that she inspires Anthy to leave, which she could not force upon Anthy but Anthy had to decide to take on herself. But there's some official artwork showing Anthy in her outfit from the end of the finale reuniting with Utena, there's the ambiguity of her fate from the gossip - "wasn't she hurt really badly and had to be hospitalized?" - and some commentary of Ikuhara's about how Utena rejecting the dueling system leads to the dueling system rejecting her in turn, and vanishing from the world. But that ties into what Anthy says at the very end - that Utena isn't GONE, she merely left the world of Ohtori. (Remember, in episode 38 Akio describes the tower as "the summit of the world" by virtue of being the highest point in Ohtori. As far as he's concerned, there is no world outside it.) Which ties into Adolescence's finale in turn, and them leaving the world of the school for the world of adults. The movie does its own thing, but it is in many ways expressing the same themes and I think the ending of the movie puts them in approximately the same place as the show - Utena inspires Anthy just as it's Utena's care for Anthy that transforms Utena, both girls leave the school, and in so doing they enter a world where they can truly meet as equals. Whether or not they DO is irrelevant, but I do like the idea that someday, together, they do get to shine.] ... I also admit I've read A LOT of writing about Utena by critics which informs how I read the work as well, but like, I do think that the movie and the TV show have essentially the same themes, including their one about princeliness. I rewatched episodes 38 and 39 for this specifically to cite examples, it is THERE in the text it just depends on how you interpret it. |
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Triltaison
Posts: 943 |
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Interesting take and I can see the arguments, but I see it differently. It reminds me of my college days studying poetry and reading literary critiques, which is also largely up to interpretation. So anyone can pull what they like from the source, of course. spoiler[I still just see it as boiling down to every person chasing their ideal of a "Prince" as a theoretical concept made physical, which is something that doesn't and can't actually exist at all. Both in a holographic world and a real world. A Prince can change the world, gain absolute power, control others, whatever... but none of those things are done by a real Prince and are inherently selfish actions by the very act of seeking it out. An actual Prince would never try to attain those actions. A Real Prince enacts change by doing what is required, not desired. A Conceptual Prince and Real Prince differ in every way. A Real Prince is basically the concept of the king who steps up to rule the country in a time of crisis and then goes back to his fields when it's over, and does not care that fulfilling the task may kill him in the end but does it because it may make things better for his country/fellow men. So I just see the story as everyone chasing their own empty desires in the pursuit of an impossible attainment because they think it will make their desires real. But the whole thing is a petty house of cards made of smoke and mirrors, and it doesn't matter if you conquer a world that doesn't exist when more pressing matters do need corrected. Utena becomes a Real Prince through action, not her previous childish desire. She becomes a Real Prince by no longer trying to become a Conceptual Prince, and that breaks the world's shell at last. That's my take for the TV series. For the movie, I view it as purely figurative literalism. This may just be because I think in pictures myself, but I see it as telling essentially the same basic story but making allegories literal in their interpretation for the purposes of abstract visuals in a visual medium. Utena is Anthy's ticket out of there, so becoming a car to take her out is an allegory of escape made visually real. Just like all the elevator confessions, student council discussions, and whatnot of the TV series... the movie just dials up those scenes and the Shadow Girls up to 11, merges them, and animates those actions instead of using dialogue to make a bigger visual part of the main story. So... same, but different. ] But that's just my own interpretation, of course. |
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Jikorijo
Posts: 32 |
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A nice discussion and prescient considering I just finished the Utena tv series two weeks ago and am watching the film later today. I figured it was good to have seen the series prior to seeing the film which (from what I've been told) reimagines the story/characters in a new way.
I don't mind reimaginings, but I do feel sometimes it does help to have seen prior material to get the full effect of what you're watching. DRYL can be enjoyed for the basic love triangle and the amazing animation, but it tends to only lightly touch on the other characters, which is a flaw. So, the OG Macross show does add a lot to the impact of DRYL. Personally, I feel like someone could watch the Rebuild of Eva films and understand the story, but certain events in the Rebuild films can impact you more when you've actually seen the OG TV series/films. The Rebuilds do tie certain things up more, but much like the older stuff, there are aspects you have to make up your own mind about, especially what you think the relationship is between the older Eva tv series/films and the Rebuild films. In contrast, I feel like if you haven't read the Scott Pilgrim comics or seen the live action film, the Scott Pilgrim Takes Off anime won't be easily understood. Takes Off really does assume you know this story/characters and is in conversation with those prior versions. |
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