Forum - View topicNEWS: Job Recruitment Site Posts Ad for Animators, Directors for New Bilibili Studio Based in Tokyo
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Rednimue
Posts: 107 |
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As I said in the past, I don't like the advance of Chinese companies in the anime industry, however I hope that this new studio based in Japan will do things more like Netflix (by providing funds and letting Japanese creatives adapt Japanese media or create new original
IPs) and not like Emon and other chinese companies with DEEN, Pierrot and Comix Wave (by forcing adaptations of Chinese Media on Japanese creatives or even just repackaging pre-existing chinese animation to "sell" to the Japanese and International market as "ANIME" ). |
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musouka
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I think it really depends on what you’re watching and why. I admit my own, personal, interest originally stemmed from how clumsy and ridiculous a lot of Chinese-bankrolled productions were. I watched them in the same way an aficionado of camp cinema watches goofy movies. However, having watched so many also makes it clear that these are growing pains of an industy that has the potential to do really interesting things in the future—especially, somewhat surprisingly, in regards to BL. I’m genuinely excited to hear that Bilibili is making this move and what it might mean for Chinese animation as a whole. |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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Oh my, this is like looking a train wreck from the very moment the train left the station. Where to start:
1) at the moment anime production in japan is at 100% capacity. So Any project must be booked one or more years in advance and even then some projects run into problems evident on the broadcast video due to the lack of manpower. 2) China has loads of animators, but of the low ranking type, otherwise they would not be trying to open an studio in japan. 3) No doubt Bilibili thinks they don't have to "get in line" if they create their own studio in japan, but they need to pay a lot more than the average studio AND make really interesting projects which is unlikely. 4) At best they will attract the problem children *waves to yamakan* of the anime industry; roll a d20, on a 20 they create a real gem, 19-15 they create some easy forgettable chinese cartoon and 14 or less they do not manage to create a completed product. 5) At worst they will blame the fallout on the "horrible japanese", at best they will try to hide it under the rug. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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There is an interesting symmetry here. There are many cases of Japanese studios outsourcing production work to Chinese ones, but this may be the first that I have heard of the converse.
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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This is not really a reversal, they intend to have key animation done in japan and inbetweeners in china will do the tedious labor, as usual. The only change is that (most likely) they intend to animate their own intellectual property, along the communist party lines (big explosions, lots of action and boring plots). |
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Rednimue
Posts: 107 |
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First, I'm sorry for the late reply but unfortunately personal circumstances have prevented me from writing it sooner.
Second, please forgive me, I'm well aware that there might be a lot of errors, parts that are not very clear and I might have repeated myself many times but english is not my first language. Third, I used bits and pieces of some of my previous comments on other articles, some of them are sligthly modified to make them fit with this discussion. Fourth, this comment might be subject to small additions and/or changes here and there to give a better insight on the topic discussed as it develops with time.
I watch animation from all over the world and of all genre. Why ? Sometimes because It's something that piqued my interest, sometimes because I just want to unwind after a long and stressful day, sometimes because It has historical value, etc ...
From here on I'll be talking about the largely "anime - inspired" kind of chinese commercial animation, with specific demographics and target audiences in mind, unless specified otherwise. I'm not exactly talking about the Chinese equivalent of Anpanman, Sazae-san or Maruko-chan here. Keep this in mind when you read. You see, what bugs me of this "interest" in the industry coming from china is that It is not a "friendly interest", with maybe even admiration and respect amidst various economic interests, to collaborate and make (Once-in-a-while) co-productions sometimes with a mix of different ideas, styles, perspective, etc ... put into the projects to make something truly unique, or at the very least different enough, that could only be make with the collaborations of different parties, something like Japan and many european countries like France, Italy and Spain have done for decades. The chinese interest in the Japanese Animation Industry (I'm not using "Anime" in this sentence because now-a-days this term has so many "interpretations" for so many people, It might cause misunderstanding) is almost entitely predatory and exploitative in nature and It might seriously compromise the whole industry, both on a creative and business/economic level, in a few years. Mangamuscle has pointed out some of the underlying problems that the industry is now struggling with. One of the most problematic is that the Industry is at 100% capacity (or very close to that percentage), we often read about labour shortage, low wages, extra tight schedules with ever-growing production's problems and such ... So, what do you think a new player FROM THE OUTSIDE (this is very important because we are not talking about animators, directors, writers, etc ... From a Japanese studio that went bankrupt and they are Just trying to reorganize themselves by forming a new studio...) in a relatively small scale, overcrowded, fragmented and High risk industry like the Japanese Animation industry (which for many is approaching the point of unsustainability) would bring ? An exacerbation of all the problems I mentioned above ... Meaning that whoever gets hired by bilibili is "forced" to work on what they want ... As I said If they'll act in a way similar to what Netflix is doing (by providing funds and letting Japanese Artists create original works or even adapt Japanese properties) I won't have a problem with it, on the other hand if they'll become a EMON 2.0 that wouldn't sit well with me for 3 reasons (these are not refered to bilibili's situation specifically but to the whole "Chinese interest in Japanese Animation") ... The first 2: [1] why should the Japanese "suddenly" start adapting works based on chinese source materials while they have so many Japanese piece of media to eventually adapt and they have been doing mainly this for the last 60 years ? [2] why should the chinese open up studios in Japan and sign contracts to outsource the animation work for their adaptations when they have such a huge workforce capable of taking care of all these things in their country at a much lower cost ? The answer is easy ! From a purely business stand point, on the chinese side: They are """"Learning""""", to put It kindly, the craft from the Japanese, selling their products by riding the wave of popularity and recognizability of anime and when they've become knowledgeable enough (and with enough recognition and visibility), they'll start a parallel market on their own, bound to become bigger in all aspects thanks to the immense chinese population. Other than """""Learning""""" the know-how they are pushing this mid-long term strategy of collaboration/co-production with Japanese entities and commercialization of chinese animation, both the collaborations and the 100% Made in china, in Japanese territory to legitimize what they produce as True Anime (which is not) in the eyes of chinese consumers (cause believe It or not even chinese consumers generally prefer anime over chinese "anime - wannabe"), Japanese consumers and the overseas anime fanbase, and then after changing the general perception of their products as something "normal" within the anime community, or even something that legitimately falls in the (now heavily distorted) definition of Anime, they'll be able to sell their products as anime and produce everything domestically and "stealing", in the process, a good chunk of the anime market/audience, reaping all the benefits for themselves (I don't even want to imagine the effects on the traditional anime market and industry that all of this would bring). This is why they're opening Japanese branches of their studios and/or constantly contracting Japanese studios and people to adapt chinese media ! On the other side, the Japanese are allowing this because, as I said before, the industry's getting closer to the level of unsustainability so as a whole, on the short term, they are desperately looking for every possible source of income to keep it going. On the mid/long term (Unless western countries will become more relevant for the industry as a market and in the funding process, which is not guaraneed to be a good thing per se. Netflix, Funimation, Crunchyroll, Amazon, etc... might act in a way that further exacerbates these problems... But I think we are still at a wait and see point for now) this would mean over-reliance on the chinese market and money for basically everything ... (You might say "but Japan is doing the same with Korea" ... however the big difference here is that Korea, compared to Japan, has always been over-reliant on outsorced animation works from around the world and It has never been capable of creating a fully indipendent animation industry on its own, so there has never been an industry to "Ruin" to begin with, at least, on a creative level.) ... which would be disastrous for the industry as a whole when the chinese decide that they "don't need the Japanese anymore". On a creative stand point: We'll gradually have an increasing number of animators and studios working for the chinese and adapting chinese media mainly for the chinese Market, as a consequence we'll have less and less Japanese studio and animators available to create or adapt Japanese media and to me It doesn't seems right at all that a well established industry has to suddenly change after 60 years of doing Its own things because of greedy chinese businessmen looking for the next target to Squeeze out as much money as they possibly can. To add insult to the injury, here's the 3rd reason ... [3] It's ok to use something as a model, as a source of inspiration, as an influence etc ... however is it ok when what you're producing (regardless of the overall quality) and selling is so derivative that it's practically a carbon copy of the "original"? They are not just doing all the things I've written so far, but they are doing it using an overall style that "Doesn't belong to them" on an creative and cultural level ... I'm well aware that a style, from a legal standpoint, cannot be copyrighted or patented by anyone and no one or nothing can stop them from using it ... heck there is nothing wrong if an artist likes that particular style and want to reproduce it to make its own work of art, however when they want to reproduce it on such a large scale, with potential for multi-million profit from a giant market and also backed by multi-million companies and even state encouraged and funded (because most if not all these giant companies have, to varying degree, ties to the CCP) ... this is going a little too far from the totally ok "Passion project made by artists with love, respect and admiration for the style" ... It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint but IMHO it's wrong in so many ways ethically and morally speaking ... and in doing so, on a creative Level, the chinese are bringing nothing new and/or original to the animation media as a whole ... there is "almost" nothing distinctive or unique that might set their products apart from what is already provided by the Japanese animation industry. (other than a few genres/subgeners that are not so popular among Japanese creators, having chinese names and locations instead of Japanese ones, spring rolls instead of sushi, celebration for the Zhongyuan jie instead of the Obon matsuri or based on Journey to the west instead of the Genji monogatari is nowhere near enough to set them apart in my book). Something like anime had done back in the days, starting from the early 60', when they were influenced by western animation (mainly Disney) and almost undistinguishable from other American cartoons and then, just a decade later, they developed a very unique and distinct style and a way of doing animation that wasn't only different enough to be immediatly recognizable but also something that was "never seen before" in the Animation media. (here's an example https://imgur.com/a/YXY0Omc ) You might say that they haven't been around as much as Japan and that with time they'll develop their own style ... I don't think this will be the case for the following reasons: (1) As I said before, The purpose behind the chinese attempt at entering the "anime market" is purely economic. The reason they're even trying in the First place is because they noticed there's high demand among chinese consumers for this kind of media (namely ANIME ) and the vast majority of consumers want this particular kind of media with a very distinct style and deviating from what the customers want is very risky and unwise on a business level. (2) Let's take Korea as a geographic close example to make my point clear. Korea as a more free country, from all kind of restrictions/censorship on creativity, has never been able to create and establish a distinct and unique style for their geeky media after decades of "taking inspiration" from Japanese geeky media (dating back to the 80s). Even if China has been "taking inspiration" from Japanese geeky media for a shorter period of time (2 decades vs 4 decades) I think, even if It has a wider pool of "talents", China will follow a similar path. You can tell by looking at both countries videogame and comic industry/culture (which have been around for a longer time), putting aside those examples which are highly influenced/derivative of american style media (although It's more of a videogame thing), there is an astounding degree of sameness/derivativeness in a lot of their works (you can go and see for yourself on any illegal scanlation website, database website or even legal ones like bilibili, U.1.7, tencent comics, lezhin comics, line webtoons etc ...) and I think this high degree of derivativeness will translate to their animation industry as well (which is already happening to an extent). (3) Also the Japanese influence over the new stylistic trends of these media won't disappear over night, so unless the entire industry in Japan will be taken over by chinese companies or china puts a total ban on Japanese media into effect, china and korea will always follow ... and even if a hypothetical total ban is put into effect in china, the 45 years long ban of Japanese media in korea showed us that It wasn't very effective ... and in a time and a world as connected and globalized as the ones we are living in, I think It would be even less effective. (4) It's true that It's a negative stereotype but we are talking about China ... They proved many many times, in the not so distant past, and in many fields that originality and creativity are not as prevalent as imitation, copy or reproduction of something that already exist with little to no variation on the formula. You may also say that, despite all of this, it's still good to have competition, this will bring more variety, drive innovation and the costumers will have more choices ... No, we are not talking about mere consumer products like Cars, groceries, computers, clothing, cellphones, etc ... or services like insurance, finalcial counseling, internet providers, etc ... the competition rule doesn't work the same way for goods and products which a good part of theirs intrinsic value is of Artistic and/or Cultural nature. Look no further than the videogame industry for a good example, the market expand immensely during the PS2 era and we see a boom in creativity, variety, quantity of games etc... The market further expands with the advent of many other new way of gaming (online gaming, family casual gaming brought by the Wii, mobile gaming, etc...), count less new companies and studios start to enter the market and going by this logic the market can only benefit because there's more competition... For a short amount of time during the seventh generation that was the case (to a certain extent) but since mid 7th gen to the present day things have drastically changed and not for the better... There is a huge difference between the output of the pre 7th generation era and the post 7th generation era in a matter of variety of scale, genres and experiences produced in those periods and needless to say it's no where as good as it once was not just in a matter of overall quality of videogames but also in a matter of anti-consumer practices and political agendas forced into games, Censorship, etc... Undermining its intrinsic artistic value in the process (it's a very long and complicated topic, I'm not explaining it further, if you're interested you can find a lot of material about it on the internet) and I'm not taking into account the rise of indipendent games because first we are talking about the commercial side of the industry (well aware that sporadic commercialy succesfull indie games exist) and second indipendent animation is not as well established as indie games and also it can hardly act as a substitute to the consumption of commercial animation as indipendents videogames can be for the commercial ones. In the end, it's true that I made my point lean a little to much on the moral, ethical and creative side of the topic rather than a purely business/economic one, however if things are going to be something like what I described above I'm not excited at all about this move from bilibili's part (in case It ends up being Emon-Like), what might mean for Chinese animation as a whole and whatever potential there might be in it ... I won't support it if it comes at the expenses of the Japanese animation industry ! There are many people who only want their daily fix of anime (or anything that looks alike) to consume and simply don't care who is making them, how is making them, why is making them, the consequences, etc ... "Unfortunately" I'm someone who cares about these things ! PS: Here are some of the articles and interviews (there are many more around the web, just Google "Japanese anime in China" or something similar) that I read and used as a reference for some of what I've written: animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-01-06/sword-art-online-director-confirms-chinese-studios-seek-japanese-staff/.126021 https://japantoday.com/category/entertainment/'kemono-friends'-producer-china-will-overtake-japan-in-anime-within-a-decade https://www.forbes.com/sites/ywang/2016/05/25/china-is-obsessed-with-japanese-anime-and-investors-are-paying-attention-2/#e4d8d2947f3a https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-10/china-s-top-anime-streaming-hub-is-said-to-plan-initial-offering https://japantoday.com/category/features/japan-ink-how-anime-is-building-business-ties-with-china Last edited by Rednimue on Fri May 15, 2020 4:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Rednimue
Posts: 107 |
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Sorry for the double post but for some reason ANN doesn't allow me to edit my previous post. (and now after 2 years the forum allows me to edit it
 )
I just wanted to add a small part about the "NEW PLAYER FROM OUTSIDE" : *(This is very important because we are not talking about animators, directors, writers, etc ... From a Japanese studio that went bankrupt and they are Just trying to reorganize themselves by forming a new studio or something similar, comparable to water particles just moving around in a pot... this is more like adding water to an already filled to the brim pot) Also I'd like to add a word to the indie games/animations point "... I'm not taking into account the rise of indipendent games because indipendent animation is not as well established and viable as indie games and also it can hardly act as a substitute to the consumption of commercial animation ... " Edit: Last but not least, there's always the "Wild Card" that's the Chinese government/regime that who knows what kind of laws and legislations might come up with, that could hurt the industry even more by banning/restricting things left and right and/or by dictating what content is acceptable or not for the Japanese to produce ... and then they won't be able to go against Chinese investors because, at this point, China will be too influential. Also Japanese companies, at this point, will probably take away their investments and resources from Japan and move them to china to chase profit there, leaving the domestic industry in shambles. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/20/business/media/new-chinese-rules-on-foreign-firms-online-content.html https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/563033/ https://www.screendaily.com/news/china-extends-restrictions-on-foreign-content-on-tv-and-online-/5132894.article https://technode.com/2019/08/16/beijing-to-allow-foreign-firms-to-provide-online-streaming-services/ https://www.animationmagazine.net/tv/tv-tokyo-to-launch-new-animation-co-in-china/ Edit 2: There you go ... Few days down the line and the first Symptoms are appearing already: - animenewsnetwork.com/news/2018-06-06/new-life-young-again-in-another-world-anime-cancelled/.132516 - animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-06-07/fate-grand-order-game-new-event-set-in-1945-stirs-controversy/.132525 As I already said ... Mark my words, this will get worse and worse in the future ... Edit 3: A couple of years later and look what's happening ... "Who would have guessed"
animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2020-03-27/nikkei-editorial-predicts-gloomy-times-ahead-for-japanese-anime-industry-as-china-puts-focus-on-domestic-animation/.157955 Plus Western companies are now doing their part by further exacerbating the problems mentioned above... Forcing Japanese creators into adapting non-Japanese source material, diverting funds and investments into other non-related projects or ventures and further warping the meaning of the word ANIME to suit their business interests (netflix is the worst offenders here). https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201903/26/WS5c990d93a3104842260b2737.html https://www.bilibili.com/read/mobile/2313268 animenewsnetwork.com/news/2020-02-25/crunchyroll-unveils-7-crunchyroll-originals-works-including-tower-of-god-noblesse-god-of-high-school/.156748 animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-03-23/funimation-bilibili-establish-partnership-for-joint-anime-licensing/.144881 Edit 4: Not That the industry in Japan is blameless but the Chinese poaching/draining of talents continues... "Who would have guessed"
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Media-Entertainment/Japan-s-starving-anime-artists-get-hand-from-Chinese-producers Edit 5: And now it looks like that the whole hulabaloo is expanding to the Japanese videogame industry as well: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/chinese-videogame-makers-hunt-for-new-market-in-japan-11574596800 https://www.gamesradar.com/platinum-games-partners-with-chinese-giant-tencent-but-says-they-will-remain-independent/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-25/tencent-to-become-largest-shareholder-in-japan-s-marvelous https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-05-17-kojima-productions-ken-ichiro-imaizumi-ends-20-year-partnership-with-kojima-to-join-tencent animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5036139#5036139 https://twitter.com/serkantoto/status/1264863049229328384?s=20 Edit 6: And... Their sphere of influence keeps expanding. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4018580 Edit 7 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-30/china-s-netease-in-talks-to-hire-creator-of-sega-yakuza-series?sref=D9adxNGw Follow up: https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/yakuza-creator-toshihiro-nagoshi-has-left-sega-3065967 Edit 8: https://archive.is/aAWOv https://mobile.twitter.com/HuffPostJapan/status/1381473613036064770 Edit 9: https://www.marketing-interactive.com/tencent-to-acquire-japanese-publishing-company-kadokawa This is not concerning... Like... AT ALL... but Let's keep pretending nothings happening... Edit 10: "...There are signs of change when it comes to the competitive value of Japanese anime overseas. Because of the shortage of Japanese anime studios, there have been movements to produce anime-style titles in South Korea, Taiwan, China, and even Thailand. Within China in particular, there have been unique anime-style properties based on Chinese source material. These titles have entered the market and have started picking up popularity. The strengthened barrier for entry for Japanese anime within the Chinese market will enforce the growth of home-grown anime titles in China. In the mid-to-long term, it is quite likely that Japan's monopoly of the anime style will end, and the production and consumption of anime will become even more global... " Well Well... Color me surprised..." Who would have guessed ?!?! " The moment anime is completely stripped of its meaning and cultural significance to be offered on the altar of throw away consumerism as a 100% globalized commercial product without a soul is getting closer and closer... But again... Let's pretend what's happening is something good or of the least concern... animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2021-11-03/what-is-happening-in-the-anime-industry-in-2020-2021-an-analysis-of-the-animati Edit 11: And the "Disappropriation" continues unabated under everyone's eyes at the tune of greedy chinese corporations squealing for profits... But most people will overlook everything that's happening just because they released a few decent show here and there. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/streaming/bilibili-unveils-slate-of-over-50-animated-titles-targets-overseas-market-211199.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bilibili-announces-over-50-new-chinese-anime-titles-at-anime-made-by-bilibili-2021-2022-bringing-chinese-anime-to-global-audiences-301430041.html https://bleedingcool.com/tv/gundam-creator-japan-no-longer-an-advance-country-for-animation/ https://twitter.com/animatorsupport/status/1570819803274653696?s=20&t=rNYxt_7V7Ni_uOyo2vGYAA https://mobile.twitter.com/animatorsupport/status/1570819803274653696 |
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