Forum - View topicThe definition of "anime" has become more blurred, and confusing.
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RupanSansei
 Posts: 258 |
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Clearly you haven't heard about the MIghty Orbots debate that has been raging on for over 30 years which is insane |
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mdo7
 Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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About the Mighty Orbots being an anime: MAL, Anilist, and AniDB have all classified that particular show as anime. So it's an anime after all, I mean it was directed by Osamu Dezaki. The character design were done by Akio Sugino. So the Mighty Orbots meets the necessary requirements to be labeled as anime. I don't know why there is a debate about Mighty Orbots being an anime for 30 years when now you got MAL, Anilist, and AniDB have all but classified that show as anime.
Oh, and nice to hear from you KyuuA4. I thought you were gone forever, but it's nice to see and hear from you again.
There are people and fans still out there that are still debating to this day, and probably at the same time become confused over what is the definition of anime. I mean this debate will never end because like for example, I mentioned Aardman Animation Studio doing a Pokemon animation short and this is going to cause people to ask "is this anime", and this whole debate is never going to end and given that Japanese animation industry are continuing to outsource or even contracting animation studio in the west (ie: Europe, and USA) to do animation on their behalf, the definition of anime is going to get more confusing, messy, and blurry at the same time. |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1371 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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How nice of you to miss me. Just a show of what I've been up to: my entire history with Japanese Mahjong sorta laid out here.
We debated this topic 20 years ago; and expect this topic to continue 20 years from now. I don't remember my predictions back then; but the nice development in the present day, more people embrace the idea of "American anime" or whatever variation we may call it. Like I said before, it was an inevitability for non-Japanese to pick up the skills to learn and develop anime/manga. It's just a matter of the fanbase to catch up; but alas, folks can be rather stubborn about that, ya? The biggest update with this whole Japanese vs non-Japanese concept: It does not matter to vtubers. In vtuber-land, no one freaking cares about that. Quite frankly, neither should we. In mahjong land, I happen to play and choose the Japanese style of mahjong. I spent my last 15 years playing and deeply involved with its politics. By odd timing, I'm actually fresh from losing a re-election bid (such is life). In this realm, Japanese mahjong is most certainly not restricted to just the Japanese. Plenty of us in the West have been enjoying it too. What does this have to do with anything here? Not much, other than it's given me quite a bit of perspective of what matters vs what doesn't matter. One of the biggest lessons I got out of mahjong though is: No need to force anything. I've spent quite a time teaching and playing this game. People play if they want to play, and they don't when they don't. Now back to, the "definition of anime": It's not a law. It's a dictionary definition, that includes non-Japanese work (noun entries 1, 2, and 3.). Language is quite notorious for evolving, and time has a lot to do with it. Words get used left and right, and meanings change as the culture changes. People either keep up with those changes or get left behind. By extension, if people want to accept the broader view of anime to include non-Japanese works, they have every right to. If these view point grows, then it grows. Compared to 20 years ago, the viewpoint certainly grew. By the way, I just added Clover into MyWaifuList. 
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mdo7
Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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And if it's not bad enough and also leading to more confusion and diluting the definition of anime, we also got this (which we just saw earlier today). From the interview:
And we just entered the diluting and causing more confusion on the definition of anime just after reading the interview and that particular section of that interview article I just quoted above. I can't called what they're doing are anime just because it was done by influencer who are not Japanese and the studio wasn't done by a Japanese. EDIT: After reading this article from ANN (I didn't get chance to see that article until after reading that interview article), it's anime. So I take back the previous sentence when I said this work was not done by a Japanese studio. But still after seeing Porter Robinson's Shelter AMV being a subject of debate on what is anime back in 2016, I don't know if this could cause another "what is anime" controversy on that same level. But after seeing how Japan is outsourcing their animation outside of Japan and outside of Asia, that makes me wonder "what if these influencer's "anime" animation was so good, and impress the Japanese animation companies and shareholders in Japan, they (I mean the Japanese companies/production committees) decide to have these guys to do the animation instead of using Japanese studio because it resemble and comes to close to their animation done by Japanese studio?". If Japanese animation studio and the production committee ended up having these guys and other influencers do the animation for an official Japanese anime, do these end up being officially labeled as anime and do they get accepted as anime by the fandom and scholar consensus? This is really going to make the definition of anime more convoluted, and more confusing. I can imagine the flame war on anime subReddit (and other subreddit that discuss anime topics) and other anime forum are going to be more intense more then ever if this ever become a thing. |
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AsleepBySunset
Posts: 315 |
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I think this is exactly why I hate the OEL manga/anime debate. I have grandiose fantasies about my stories being adapted by ghibli or whatever too. But so many people slavishly attempt to imitate anime/manga instead of trying to make a good story, in the hopes they will win the "honorary anime" label, or "get scouted in japan" or whatever. If you want people in japan to throw you a bone, make something good first and don't even worry about tricking people into thinking your work is actually a japanese story. No really, why would people in japan like it if they thought this work was from japan, but then realised it was an american mimicing japanese story telling and art styles specifically to FOOL you into believing the work came from japan so that they could win the label "anime". For the record, don't mistake me, i love the art style of anime, and I don't have anything against people using anime inspired art styles, if your anime inspired art actually sort of passes as japanese, I have nothing against you, you are earnestly drawing and it happens to look japanese. But if the focus of your work is passing as japanese instead of telling a good story, why? People in japan are as far as I'm concerned more likely to read/watch/consume something like pink floyd, lilo and stitch or harry potter, something which doesn't pretend to be japanese, it's just good (if you hate any of those three properties, whatever). This is the second part of the oel manga/anime debate I hate, you have a vested agenda of blurring the defination of anime by debating international coproductions, outsourcing and trans-continental adaptions. Why? So you can say that anything in the west which looks anime is an honorary anime. I assure you, this is stupid, why would defining anime to include works like shelter or the dragon prince make your passion project which you presumably believe actually looks like an anime an honorary anime, because half of these international coproductions/edgecases DON'T look like anime at all. If your going to argue that the aardman pokemon tie ins are honorary anime, GREAT, but you've ACTUALLY STRENGTHENED the argument that the definition of anime is entirely defined by being produced in part or in whole, in japan and or having japanese funding. So great, your work definitely ISN'T an honorary anime no matter how slavishly you imitate japanese art or writing. If you want to attempt to redefine the word anime so it includes whatever your selling, and want anime fans to like, just stop. Why would I support you redefining anime or "blurring the edges around the label of anime" to include whatever your selling as anime. Like netflix you're attempting to turn anime into a meaningless marketing term, at which point just call it "prestige animation" or something instead. (All yous in this post are general yous, sorry if it comes across as rude) |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1371 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Ironically, this gradiose fantasy is dead because you won't accept it. A basic concept such as "American anime". And so on. And by the way, not every anime/manga is a Japanese story. They've been citing story ideas from all over the world this whole time, y'know.
But you're right. People should indeed work on creating good stories. However, they can and should use anime/manga as the medium for delivery, because they have ever right to do so. Nothing in the court of law prevents them from doing so. The main thing that stops them is the market response. If it ain't "Japanese", people might not buy. Unless, the story work is just that good.
That answer can be stemmed into one word: Opportunity. People have the right to the opportunity to create works and compete with the manga industry in Japan, with the hopes for some of them to be developed into anime. Manga from the West can bring in some fresh blood with fresh ideas. My biggest complaint with anime/manga in Japan, it's generally same-old-same-old now. This is what happens, when a market gets saturated. Writers and artists essentially copy and emulate each other, in order to get their foot into the market. As far as "blurring" the terms anime and manga, let me tell you something. We have the right to consider some non-Japanese work as anime and manga. Simultaneously, we also have the right to reject that concept. However, if a creator deems his or her work as anime/manga, none of us here have the right to reject that. As consumers though, we have the right to spend or not to spend money on a product. |
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mdo7
Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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I'm afraid the definition has now become more muddied and more confusing. You remember on my OP I've wrote that because Topcraft Studio/Rankin Bass's The Stingiest Man in Town has been classified as anime because of Topcraft Studio being the Japanese studio and the fact that ANN's Encyclopedia, MAL/Myanimelist, Anilist, and AniDB has classified that animated film as anime, that would mean by extension anything that Topcraft animation done for Rankin-Bass would have to be retroactively applied to other Rankin-Bass titles like The Last Unicorn, and Flight of Dragons (both of them had animation done by Topcraft). And I made the strong argument that both of them should be retroactively classified as anime because of that. I also said the same thing about Rankin-Bass's stop motion animation (ie: Rudolph the red-nosed Reindeer, Jack Frost, etc...), should they be classified as anime because the stop-motion animation studio that did this was also involved with Nutcracker Fantasy, which counts as anime citing the anime databases.
Now this is where it gets more confusing, and I have moral dilemma over this. How many of you watched Thunderbolt Fantasy on Crunchyroll? Because I went to Anilist, and AniDB, and look what I saw: Thunderbolt Fantasy's Anilist entry Thunderbolt Fantasy's AniDB entries Thunderbolt Fantasy's ANN entry That's right, Thunderbolt Fantasy has now been classified as anime according to the 3 databases above, MAL doesn't classified it as anime in their database. This is where it get messy and I have a problem with Thunderbolt Fantasy being classified as anime. Because Thunderbolt Fantasy despite being a Japanese-Taiwanese co-production, the glove puppetry animation work were done by the Taiwanese company, Pili. The same Pili that was responsible for Wulin Warriors, Pili Fantasy: War of Dragons, and Legend of the Sacred Stone. None of the 3 titles I just mentioned were not co-production with Japan, nor did have any Japanese creatives involved in there. I advocated to have The Last Unicorn, and Flight of Dragon to be retroactively classified as anime citing Topcraft's involvement with the 2 animated films, and the fact that The Stingiest Man in Town has been counted as anime by the database. So there's precedent, and where my logic make sense to have it classified as anime. This is where it get confusing when it comes to applying the anime label because of the animating studio: Applying my Rankin-Bass/Topcraft logic, and because ANN's Encyclopedia, Anilist, and AniDB has counted Thunderbolt Fantasy as anime on their database: You are telling me now that I have to classify Wulin Warriors, Pili Fantasy: War of Dragons, and The Legend of Sacred Stone as "anime" despite not being a Japanese co-production nor creative involved because the studio that did all of these? Do I now have to say Wulin Warriors is now an "anime" retroactively? This is where and why the definition of anime gets muddied. And here's one thing I find ironic: Anilist, and AniDB have classified Thunderbolt Fantasy as anime, and yet the same Anilist and AniDB somehow don't or refuse to classify Tokyo Overdrive as an anime despite being a Japanese co-production with another country/nation. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 10365 Location: Virginia |
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@mdo7
I'm sorry but you are taking this issue way too seriously. You are trying to apply logic where it doesn't pertain. Everyone of those lists you refer to are maintained by a different organization. Likely within a given organization the definition of what is anime is handle by a small group or a single individual whose opinion is the deciding factor. They can include or not include anything they want. No one outside that organization has the authority to force them to change. You too have your own definition of anime that you would like others to use. Most of the titles you have referenced in this thread I would consider marginal at best and would not include them as anime or would establish a separate category of "anime with an asterisk". However, my opinion does not govern you any more than your opinion governs me. The definition of anime in this country has always been a bit fuzzy and will remain so until some future date when no one cares except video historians. This is not a problem for newbies since they seldom get into the issue until they are well enough versed in anime to have their own opinion. No you are not obligated to include a bunch of puppet shows as anime if it doesn't feel right to you. Personally I would not include Thunderbolt Fantasy as anime since I don't consider puppet shows to be animation Others would likely disagree. Concerning Thunderbolt Fantasy, Zac who was executive editor at the time really liked the first season of the show. Likely his enthusiasm influenced who ever added it to the encyclopedia here. |
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mdo7
Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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No, I'm not. I'm just noting this out for Thunderbolt Fantasy because well the animation used in it is glove puppetry (an artwork that is unique and originated in China and Taiwan). Yes, Thunderbolt Fantasy is indeed a co-production between Taiwan and Japan, my concern with Anilist and AniDB classifying Thunderbolt Fantasy as an anime is that by adding it into the database: they're saying that glove puppetry is now an anime, that's saying any glove puppetry even if the craftwork's origin is Chinese are now anime. That's like saying that Wulin Warrior has now been retroactively classified as anime because the same glove puppetry that is used in that show is also found in Thunderbolt Fantasy despite Wulin Warrior doesn't have any Japanese involvement. I'm worried this might anger some Chinese-speaking fans that international anime fans may associate glove puppetry to anime, and I'm also worried this could lead to more confusion within the anime fandom when Anilist and AniDB did that.
Although this is true and you're correct, I'm a bit worried it'll cause more confusion within the anime fanbase (particularly the newer one that don't have the wider knowledge like you and I have), and now I know why anime fans looked down and sneer at anime "tourists". No disrespect to Zac, but adding Thunderbolt Fantasy to any anime database and counting it as anime is well misleading and also could cause unintended side effect like associating glove puppetry to Japan, and not Chinese/Taiwanese hence angering Chinese speaker (& ethnicity) by whitewashing/"Japanizing" the particular craftwork that is associated with Chinese/Taiwanese and now associating it to Japanese. This is kind of like associating fortune cookies to Chinese when it was originated in Japan, or here's a better analogy: associating MSG/Monosodium glutamate to Chinese (hence Chinese Restaurant Syndrome) when it's origin is from Japan. I don't want to see anime fans even younger and newer one associating glove puppetry to Japan all because of Thunderbolt Fantasy's inclusion into Anilist and AniDB databases.
Alan45, there's a bit of an irony to this: I've seen some donghua fans that are not anime fans or don't have any experience with anime (or not bothering to do research) that seem to misclassify or claim that The Apothecary Diaries is not anime, but a donghua because of the anime's Chinese setting/characters and the animation (both Japanese anime and current Chinese animation can look similar on the surface minus the language). And The Apothecary Diaries is not the only anime title that is a victim of donghua fans misidentification and mislabeling, this has happened to other Japanese anime with Chinese theme/setting like Fushigi Yugi (yes, there has been donghua fans that thought Fushigi Yugi was a Chinese animation because of the Chinese setting in the anime). Raven of the Inner Palace has also been a victim of the donghua fan misclassification too unfortunately. I'm sure there are anime fans that have mistakenly identified several donghua/Chinese animation titles as anime like I can imagine The Daily Life of the Immortal King can get mistaken for an anime because of the school setting if they didn't bother to do research. So yeah, this is why I get worried about Thunderbolt Fantasy being counted as anime on the database, it's because people and anime fans including anime "tourists" may start associating glove puppetry to Japan and not China/Taiwan just like how donghua fans have misidentified or something mislabeling or even associating some anime titles that have Chinese setting or theme to donghua. I don't want to see both anime fans and donghua fans erupt in outrage when their fandoms' newer fans or even "tourists" can make a simple mistake because of the way they misidentified certain titles (ie: The Apothecary Diaries being misclassified as donghua by fans of donghua, and glove puppetry being associated with Japanese because of Thunderbolt Fantasy being not aware that glove puppetry is originated in China and not Japan). When Crunchyroll has Chinese animation titles alongside their Japanese titles on their catalog, that confusion and misidentification is going to be probably be more common if you have newer fans that don't bother to do their research. True story: I had an anime fan on MAL who was baffled why Netflix's Ultraman: Rising wasn't counted as anime on the database and I had to explain to that fan that Ultraman: Rising was animated by an American animation studio, Industrial Light and Magic, and not a Japanese one and it wasn't directed by a Japanese and no Japanese creativity involved in this one despite the film was based on a Japanese property and added that the Ultraman: Rising not being classified as anime is similar to the 1994 American Sailor Moon animated pilot. So yeah, that's why I get worried about Thunderbolt Fantasy being classified as anime when Anilist and AniDB added it into their database. Associating glove puppetry to Japan when it's actually Chinese is going to be like associating fortune cookies and MSG/monosodium glutamate to Chinese when it's origins are Japanese. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 10365 Location: Virginia |
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I think the fact that Thunderbolt Fantasy was a Japanese co-production is sufficient to differentiate it from other similar shows with no Japanese involvement. I agree it doesn't belong in the Encyclopedia here anymore than a live action show does. Unfortunately neither you nor I is in a position to change things either here or on other lists. I do think you are worrying unnecessarily about something that hasn't happened yet. Sufficient to the day the evil thereof.
Everyone was new at anime at some time. Referring to someone new as an Anime Tourist is just spiteful gate keeping. I feel anyone who likes two anime shows is an anime fan (if you only like one show you are a fan of that show). I don't think marginal shows being classified as anime is a problem for most newcomers. The majority of current anime fans seem to be plugged into the seasonal streaming shows. Most don't seem to look back more than is necessary to get current on shows with prior seasons. Lets face it the forty some shows shown each season are more than enough to keep anyone busy. As an added bonus they get to discuss them with their friend as they air. It is hard to get them interested in shows only a few years old, much less stuff done thirty years ago. I haven't seen any, but the general consensus here seems to be that animation that actually originates in China is um... Not Very Good. If that is correct than it doesn't surprise me that some Chinese fans are trying to claim anything that is set in a Chinese background. I'm surprised they don't also claim Dragon Ball. Regardless, it doesn't hurt the anime to be improperly claimed by a handful of Chinese fans. That is their problem not ours. It is rather funny as Apothecary Diaries goes to great length to say it is set in a fictional country so that they don't upset Chinese authorities. Think how much fantasy anime is set in a sort of generic medieval setting. Should Europeans claim all that a European animation?? |
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mdo7
Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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I know we can't change or convince. That's not the point, the point is that by putting Thunderbolt Fantasy as an anime on anime databases, that is "painting" or associating Glove puppetry with Japanese, and not Chinese/Taiwanese. I don't want to see anime fans making this association, that would be similar to how fortune cookies and MSG being labeled as Chinese despite it's Japanese origin.
Again, I'm not hating on anime "tourists" or newbies, we all (including you & I) have started out as newbie too. So I never understood the hatred and gatekeeping toward that, I guess some gate-keeping elitist anime fans seem to forgotten how they once started out as a newbies/tourists themselves, so I don't understand that mentality.
It's not, but you can have somebody like a new donghua/Chinese animation fan mistakenly misidentified Fushi Yugi as a donghua.
I would recommend watching several of them, there are several Chinese animation/donghua series where on the surface it looks a lot like an anime if one didn't bother to research on that. So, there are some good one out there, you just have to know where to find them.
I didn't say Chinese (as in ethnicity) fan (I should've been more clearer, sorry about that), I mean international as in non-Asian fans of Chinese animation/donghua that don't have or less experience with Japanese anime are mistakenly labeling some anime titles as donghua because of the setting of some of the anime. I've seen some international donghua fans misidentifying or mislabeling The Apothecary Diaries, Raven of the Inner Palace, and even going as far as to mislabel Fushi Yugi as a donghua (again, due to the Chinese setting). I don't see any international donghua fans claiming Dragonball as a donghua, probably because Dragonball is so internationally renowned and a household name, even a donghua fan with no or less experience with anime would know what Dragonball is. I have seen cases of anime fans (again, this is for a newer anime fans or an anime fan that doesn't have experience or familiarity with Chinese animation) misidentifying several Chinese animation titles as anime like an anime fan mistakenly called The Daily Life of the Immortal King, & Heaven Official's Blessing as anime, and yes it's possible for a newer anime fan or let say an anime fan that didn't do their research to mislabel/misidentify The King's Avatar as anime. Again, these Chinese Donghua titles I just mentioned looks a lot like anime on the surface hence the misidentification/mislabeling from anime fans. It doesn't help that Crunchyroll and Netflix have both Japanese and Chinese animation titles on their catalog, so the mistake of misidentifying/mislabeling from anime fans can occurred and has happened already before. So yeah, international donghua and anime fans misidentifying and mislabeling each Chinese and Japanese animation titles are going to happened more and more often because of that.
Even though it's a fictional country, the characters in the Apothescary Diaries have Chinese name in there hence why donghua fans with no or less experience with anime have misidentify/mislabeled that anime as a Chinese donghua. The same happened to Raven of the Inner Palace (Japanese anime series that take place in Ancient China, and character names are Chinese). Also you got Japanese/Chinese co-productions like Under One Person aka Hitori no Shita: The Outcast/Yi Ren Zhi Xia which the first 2 seasons was a Japanese/Chinese co-pro and 3rd-5th season is Chinese exclusive. So yeah the co-productions plus new international donghua fans that have no or less experience with anime can dive into a deep confusion distinguishing donghua from anime. The same can be said for anime fans that have no or less experience with donghua can mistakenly misidentified and mislabeled several Chinese donghua titles because on the surface level, the animation and character designs look similar to Japanese anime. My point is that when Anilist and AniDB put anime on a glove puppetry shows like Thunderbolt Fantasy, they are labeling and associating glove puppetry as Japanese and not Chinese. So that's going to cause a lot of misconception amongst non-Asian international anime fans that don't know anything about glove puppetry assuming that international anime fans doesn't watch any Chinese-language entertainment outside of watching anime. |
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AsleepBySunset
Posts: 315 |
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I've said this before, I'll say it again, but the reason this happens is because when you view a listing on MAL there isn't a clear piece of text next to the date/number of episodes/runtime which says "Country of origin" (or "Countries of origin" for coproductions). If you look at the listing for Oban star racers there should be a clear peice of text which says "countries of origin: france, japan", in fact, it should also say "original languages: french, japanese" beneath it. This same problem occurs on goodreads. Imdb (it's there but you have to scroll really far, and if people get overzealous adding outsourcing countries the list of countries becomes confusing). ANN. More or less every other listing site has this problem. (Wikipedia doesn't though) Again, this isn't a problem with "the boundaries of anime becoming blurred". Merely MAL oftentimes sucking |
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mdo7
Posts: 8232 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Well, you can say the same for Anilist and AniDB too. I've already mentioned this on one of my earlier post, but the Shelter AMV even if it count as anime on MAL, Anilist, and AniDB. It still faced controversy but a silly one over how an anime subreddit classified this as not anime even though it is by default technicality. So even an anime title whether a TV series, or an AMV, it can still face challenges from some anime fans. |
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lumclaw
 Posts: 58 |
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As far as I understand it, what makes all this debate humorous, is how the presentation and aesthetic most strongly associated with the term 'anime' was initially derived from western animation.
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AsleepBySunset
Posts: 315 |
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Imagine if the next year, all anime released looked like a classic disney movie, say, Beauty and the Beast or better yet, an older work before Osamu Tezuka like Cinderella. How would you feel about it? You'd obviously notice things look radically different, maybe some stories, like shoujo manga adaptions would still work but battle shounen type stories would be worse off... That's my whole problem with the debate. While some western art does actually imitate anime to the point you could mistake the two, by and large that's not what the debates about. The debate is about defining works like ATLA, Arcane and the Dragon Prince which DON'T look like anime to be anime. The for lack of a better term, pro OEL anime people claim to argue that we should redefine anime to refer to a style of story telling or a style of art, but then when trying to come up with western works to include in this new definition, don't even pick things which have anime style art or anime style story telling. |
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